cdbern, I think it's cute the way you want to look past politics and religion trying to find your 'root cause'. Unfortunately, the truth doesn't care whether you're comfortable with it or not. And the truth, in this case, is oh so painfully obvious. I think you know this. As Rearden said, there are MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of starving people all throughout Sub-Saharan Africa, Latin and Central America and the Indian subcontinent. How many of them are BLOWING THEMSELVES AND OTHERS UP because of it? Come on man, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots on this one. To ART, who, like most liberals these days, will make conjour up the most ridiculous associations in an effort to make everything, but everything, wrong with the world in some way the fault of George Bush. Hilarious. Even more so when it comes packaged in holier-than-thou overtones. What a riot! As for the millions of Americans losing jobs, I don't really see the need for any urgent effort for "we as a Nation" to do be doing anything more about than providing an atmosphere where business can flourish and jobs can be created. Protectionism certainly isn't the answer. So funny to watch so-called "progressives" try and stop progress from occurring when it comes to globalism. And no, Freidman doesn't have a point about young muslims and lack of jobs. There are young people the world over without jobs and EVEN LESS prospect of finding one than the young muslims. So what's the point? Personally, I don't see how the hell they can be helped unless they're first willing to help themselves. Fact is, these people want their societies and politics to be more Muslim. And, so very unfortunately, there is, as history has amply shown, an inverse relationship between the muslim-ness of a society and its politics and economic progress. Again, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots on this. So, given that none of these muslim countries appear remotely willing to secularize and modernize their states, I don't see that anything more can be done about them then keeping the offer of assistance open and defending ourselves from the next time one of their inevitable, culturally inbred, outbursts of Islam inspired and backed violence rears its head.
Wow, awesome post there spect8or. Couldn't agree more. Trying to find the root cause of Islamic violence without mentioning religion is like trying to find the root cause of rain without mentioning clouds. http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14991
Guys, I understand where you're coming from in your posts. My point is simply that constructive efforts soon relapse into knock down drag out bloodletting debates about religion and politics. Frankly I'm tired of it. I spent a good part of my adult life active in politics. Doing everything from door knocking (as a new comer) running campaigns, being a political consultant, party leader, lobbyists and getting summoned to the White House. All it is is a bunch of crap. No one is really looking for an answer, they're only looking for power and someone to blame. An argument is never won by telling someone that their core beliefs are wrong. And that is where every discussion ends up. Fingerpointing is never the answer. I was just curious to see if members of this forum were any different.
spect8or, when I said to get past politics and religion I was referring to getting past the daily debate as to which party is right or wrong and to get past which religion is right or wrong. Something most people are incapable of doing. Your remark about continuing to create an atmosphere where business can flourish is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping we could have. How about a little more detail. Some of the detail will involve politics, but hopefully not from the standpoint of throwing darts. For example, what about our tax structure? Should it change? If so, how and why, if not, why not. Civility is the order of the day though. These things can be discussed without getting into personalities and platforms. As for religion. I know those problems go back to the beginning of time. But Iâm not willing to believe thats the sole reason for the conflict. Human nature being what it is, there has to be more to it. As soon as I allow myself to think thatâs all thatâs involved, the sooner I have to accept defeat in any hope for mankind. Then again, if youâre so inclined, you could say the events in the middle east is merely the fulfilling of prophecy. In addition, accepting the notion that the only reason for terrorists is religion, allows me to disregard personal responsibility. We can insist they help themselves, a concept I whole heartily endorse, but we canât insist on that unless we too are willing to do all we can on our parts. Did you read Friedmanâs article or just my poor summary? Iâm not sure I completely agree with it, although it provided some food for thought. He presented a view point I had not previously considered. Progress comes from at least considering the validity of anothers point of view. One of the things he did mention was that Europe has caused the biggest problem and that America took the hit. âsecularize and modernize their statesâ. How?
.....still missing the point......you have ruthless dictators in a lot of these counties....even though they are sitting on enough oil to make everyone in their country millionaires, they leave them in poverty and blame the rest of the world and promote fanaticism and hatred against others...like the jews in israel.....its such a small insignificant country in the grand scheme of things yet so much of the middle east is dedicated to its destruction, when in actuality they should all be driving a lexus and laughing all the way to the bank ......and don;t forget that many of these terror cells are nothing more then glorified mafia thugs....The IRA is also like this.....Do you know how many MILLIONS arafat is worth from shakedowns and donations???
there are terrorist all over the world from all walks off life....even Americans ( McVeigh )...... have you been outside the states?? bombs go off evrywhere from Russia to Colombia due to terrorism....
Don't forget Ted Kaczynski , and the guy/guys who mailed all the anthrax. In fact, the Britts considered the colonists who fought for America's independence to be terrorists of a sort. So much depends on what side of the political spectrum one is on. One man's terrorist is another man's hero.
yes. perhaps the discussion might benefit from a more precise definition of what you mean by "terrorism."
If the reason was purely religious, one would expect Muslims worldwide to be actively engaged in terrorism. But they aren't. Therefore one has to logically conclude that an outside element is contributing to this. Middle eastern cultures so not place the same value on life as we do. They very much hold to the "an eye for an eye" mindset. So, my contention is that its POSSIBLE that suppression, lack of opportunity etc, is the contributing element behind young muslims joining the likes of Bin Laden. Is there any US meddling that can be seen as a POSSIBLE trigger? The IRA movement certainly wasn't religious.
One of the real problem is the hypocrisis of the IMF and World Bank IMF "DEBT RELIEF" IS A "CRUEL HOAX" ON POOR COUNTRIES http://www.cepr.net/IMF/McKinney.htm Congress of the United States House of Representatives Washington DC August 4, 1998 IMF "DEBT RELIEF" IS A "CRUEL HOAX" ON POOR COUNTRIES Dear Colleague: The Administration has asked Congress to appropriate $18 billion for the International Monetary Fund (IMF). As you know, there are many unanswered questions regarding the practices of the IMF. One of these concerns the crushing debt burden that poor countries are forced to endure as a result of IMF policies. As a result of adherence to IMF programs, some of the poorest countries in the world are paying as much on debt service of foreign loans -- including loans owed to the IMF and the World Bank -- as they are spending on health care and education. For example, even after a recent "debt relief" program negotiated with the IMF, Mozambique, the poorest country in the world, will still be paying as much on debt service as it is spending on health and education. As a result, Jubilee 2000, a Christian coalition which advocates for debt relief for poor countries, calls IMF debt relief a "cruel hoax." The IMF has been playing a shell game with poor countries. While the IMF slowly reduces the paper debt which everyone knows can never be paid anyway, the IMF does not reduce the actual amount that poor countries are paying in yearly debt service. Jubilee 2000 points out that after World War II, the German government successfully negotiated with the Allies for a cap on debt service which was 3.5% of export earnings. In contrast, the World Bank insists that debt service of 20% of export earnings is "sustainable." The human suffering caused by these IMF/World Bank policies is staggering. Based on United Nations figures, Jubilee 2000 estimates that if Mozambique were to spend half the money on health and education that it is now paying on debt service, it would save the lives each year of 115,000 children and 6000 mothers giving birth. This is all the more shocking when one considers that the Administration is insisting that Congress must give the IMF more money to help poor people in poor countries. We should insist on the reform of IMF debt relief policies as a condition of any appropriation of money for the IMF. There must be a cap on the percentage of export earnings that poor countries are required to pay in debt service, similar to the cap that was granted to Germany after World War II. Thank you very much. Sincerely, Cynthia McKinney Member of Congress