Yawn....... Israel attacked by Hamas

Discussion in 'Politics' started by themickey, Oct 7, 2023.

  1. Cuddles

    Cuddles

    #1081     Dec 17, 2023
  2. themickey

    themickey

    I'm not surprised.

    Israels response of scorched earth, shoot anything and everything that moves, is not a winning formula, neither is Americas support of supplying weapons to keep the conflagration in perpetual motion.
    Israel feel very cocky with American firepower on tap and not encouraged to find alternate solutions.

    So it works both ways. Israel is ‘entrenched in a never-ending cycle of bloodshed'
     
    #1082     Dec 17, 2023
  3. themickey

    themickey

    Inside Hamas’ underground network: largest tunnel yet found
    By Paul Nuki December 18, 2023
    https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle...largest-tunnel-yet-found-20231218-p5es2a.html

    What strikes you first about the tunnel is its size. Jutting out from the desert sand at a gradient of about 25 degrees, the rusty tubular steel opening is just big enough to drive a car through.

    That is far from an accident. Hamas, as it proved on October 7, is a mobile terror group and this vast tunnel network, running 50 metres deep in places and emerging just shy of the Erez Crossing at Gaza’s northern tip, is believed to have been designed for a wider invasion of Israel.

    [​IMG]
    The Israel Defence Forces say this tunnel, in Gaza near the border with Israel, is the largest they’ve found yet.Credit: Getty

    “From here you can be in Tel Aviv in 50 minutes and Jerusalem in an hour,” says one of the soldiers charged with taking us into it.

    The Erez tunnel network is about four kilometres in length – the biggest discovered since the war started, according to the Israel Defence Forces (IDF).

    At the entrance to the tunnel, we step over a pair of metre-square shafts that plummet vertically down. Steel ladders are pinned to the wall of each but you can’t see the bottom, giving a slight sense of vertigo as you enter.

    A soldier to my right says he thinks the shafts were designed to collect sand that would otherwise fall inwards and block the main passage when the tunnel’s entrance was opened from within as part of a surprise attack. “We see the same in other attack tunnels,” he says.

    [​IMG]
    The newly located tunnel is wide enough for a car to travel down.Credit: AP

    He and his colleagues will destroy them with explosives along with the rest of the tunnel network once we’ve left.

    For the first 10 or 15 metres, the walls are clad in the same steel sheet that is visible from the surface. It’s pitted and coloured with a deep rust, moisture from the thick air condensing against it. Further in, the sheeting gives way to hefty circular steel ribs before the walls straighten and the modular concrete arches seen in most other parts of the Gaza Metro take over.

    Along the walls on either side, cables are slung for communications, lighting and power just like in a train tunnel. Deeper down, from about the point at which it starts to become harder to breathe, a plastic drainage pipe runs along the ceiling to provide ventilation.

    As we move further underground, temperature and humidity rise quickly, and you can see why Hamas is desperate for fuel to power its oxygen generators and ventilation pumps.

    Even just 50 or 60 metres in and perhaps 10 metres beneath the surface, the air is dank and sickly. Your heart rate picks up, not with physical exertion, but with the metabolic effect of your body sweating to try to cool itself in a super-humid environment.

    The idea of running, let alone fighting down here seems impossible and you can see why IDF troops only enter as a last resort. The frame of anyone moving in from the light becomes a perfect silhouette. A single combatant with a rifle could hold off a commando unit for hours.

    We don’t see them, but further in there are subsidiary tunnels running left and right, says the IDF. Off these are various rooms for storage, command and control and accommodation. Many of the entrances are protected by hefty steel blast doors.

    “This tunnel is connected to a wider total network that we have discovered in other areas,” says an IDF spokesman. “We found a large number of weapons inside the tunnel in depots ready to be used. It’s all around the tunnel.”

    [​IMG]
    An Israeli soldier walks through the largest tunnel found in Gaza yet.Credit: Getty

    The IDF believes the advance depositing of weapons in concealed areas above and below ground is one way in which Hamas managed to conceal its intentions ahead of October 7. “This is how they kept it a secret.” Fighters did not need to know in advance because the weapons depots were ready, the spokesman said.

    While the main part of the tunnel was not used in the October 7 attack and is thought to have been kept secret for a separate assault, the IDF says other parts of the network were used to both stage the attack and retreat back into Gaza with hostages.

    After her release at the end of October, 85-year-old Yocheved Lifshitz recounted being taken by her captors into a network of tunnels. “We went underground and walked for kilometres in wet tunnels, for two or three hours, in a spider’s web of tunnels,” she told journalists.

    “We went through the tunnels until we reached a large hall. We were 25 people, and they separated us according to which kibbutz we were from.”

    [​IMG]
    Israeli soldiers exit a tunnel that the military says Hamas militants used to attack the Erez crossing.Credit: AP

    Other released hostages have described being held in rooms with little light or food. “Every day [in] there is like hell,” said 21-year-old Maya Regev. “Abnormal fear, zero sleep. At night the longings are crazy.”

    The thud of heavy munitions hitting Gaza City could be heard in the distance when we were underground. The idea of that happening directly overhead while being held in anything like the Erez tunnel for months is the stuff of nightmares.
    “Every day in captivity was extremely challenging. We were in tunnels, terrified that it would not be Hamas, but Israel, that would kill us, and then they would say Hamas killed you,” one freed hostage told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in an angry meeting with the hostage families two weeks ago.

    The Telegraph, London

     
    #1083     Dec 17, 2023
    gwb-trading likes this.
  4. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    You make a valid point that the U.S. has leverage over the situation in Israel -- we are probably the only country with any type of influence or leverage.

    However Israel is unlikely to stop their operations in Gaza until Hamas is eliminated as a military and governing entity. No country would put up with terrorists murdering 1400 of their citizens in a single day and not take action to hunt down those responsible.

    The real problem is that the Netanyahu administration is not interested in peace and a two state solution. Until the government changes in Israel no progress towards peace will be made. This entire Gaza situation with the Hamas attack probably set back peaces progress by 20 years. Obviously the Abraham accords, etc. are now DOA.

    The actions taken by Nethanyahu and his cohorts over years including allowing settlers to forcefully move into the West Bank, adding further restrictions on Palestinians, and deliberately undermining Fatah by support Hamas to stop progress on a two state solution has been reflective of the poor policy of his administration.
     
    #1084     Dec 17, 2023
  5. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    More aid going into Gaza...

    Aid enters Gaza through Israel's Kerem Shalom crossing for first time in war
    https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...em-shalom-crossing-first-time-war-2023-12-17/

    The Kerem Shalom crossing between Israel and Gaza opened on Sunday for aid trucks for the first time since the outbreak of war, officials said, a move intended to double the amount of food and medicine reaching the enclave.

    The crossing had been closed after an Oct. 7 attack by Hamas and aid was being delivered solely through Gaza's Rafah crossing with Egypt, which Israel said could only accommodate the entry of 100 trucks per day.

    (More at above url)
     
    #1085     Dec 17, 2023
  6. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    There is renewed hope for a temporary ceasefire and hostage exchange.

    Egyptian sources say Israel, Hamas open to truce but obstacles remain
    https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...en-ceasefire-disagreements-remain-2023-12-17/

    Two Egyptian security sources said on Sunday that Israel and Hamas are both open to a renewed ceasefire and hostage release, although disagreements remain on how it would be implemented.

    Egypt and Qatar, which had previously negotiated a week-long ceasefire and hostage release, insisted on expediting aid and the opening of the Kerem Shalom crossing before any negotiations could begin, the sources said.

    (More at above url)
     
    #1086     Dec 17, 2023
  7. Overnight

    Overnight

    Don't forget the Koran.
     
    #1087     Dec 17, 2023
  8. themickey

    themickey

    [​IMG]
    Ben Wallace also criticised Israel’s new generation of ‘bull in a China shop’ politicians for ‘crashing from one crisis to another’. Photograph: Sean Gallup/Getty Images

    Israel’s ‘killing rage’ will fuel conflict for 50 years, warns ex-UK defence secretary

    Senior Tory criticises war methods in Gaza, saying they pose threat to Israel’s moral and legal authority

    Patrick Wintour Diplomatic editor
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ars-warns-ex-uk-defence-secretary-ben-wallace

    The Israeli government’s “killing rage” in Gaza poses a threat to the country’s moral and legal authority and will fuel conflict for another 50 years, the former UK defence secretary Ben Wallace has warned.

    In an intervention that goes further than any other front-rank British politician in its criticism of Israel’s methods in the war, the senior Conservative MP wrote in the Daily Telegraph: “Going after Hamas is legitimate; obliterating vast swathes of Gaza is not. Using proportionate force is legal, but collective punishment and forced movement of civilians is not.”

    He also criticised Israel’s new generation of “bull in a China shop” politicians for “crashing from one crisis to another”.

    International pressure on Israel has been growing over the scale of civilian casualties in Gaza. About 19,000 people have been killed in the course of the Israeli offensive, according to health officials in the Hamas-run territory, since the Hamas attack on Israel of 7 October, which killed 1,200 people.

    At the weekend the UK foreign secretary, David Cameron, joined his German counterpart in calling for a “sustainable ceasefire” in the territory, adding that “too many civilians have been killed”.

    Grant Shapps, the current defence secretary, said the approach would mean “hostages released, rockets stop flowing and there’s actually a political process in place to make sure that we get to the day after”.

    The US defence secretary, Lloyd Austin, is due to meet the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and the defence minister, Yoav Gallant, this week to discuss in detail when and how Israeli forces may carry out a new phase of fighting.

    American officials envision smaller groups of elite forces who would move in and out of population centres in Gaza, conducting more precise, intelligence-driven missions to find and kill Hamas leaders, rescue hostages and destroy tunnels, US officials said.

    The UN security council is also due to vote on Monday on a resolution for a durable and sustainable cessation of hostilities. Cameron defined sustainable as one in which Hamas could not mount further attacks on Israel that threatened its security.

    In his Telegraph article Wallace was less interested in the timing of a ceasefire than Israel’s tactics.

    He wrote: “We are entering a dangerous period now where Israel’s original legal authority of self-defence is being undermined by its own actions. It is making the mistake of losing its moral authority alongside its legal one.

    “I am sure that the shame Benjamin Netanyahu feels for not foreseeing the October 7 attacks is deep, especially for someone who presented himself as a security hawk and tough guy. But perhaps that shame is driving him to lose sight of the long term.

    “If he thinks a killing rage will rectify matters, then he is very wrong. His methods will not solve the problem. In fact, I believe his tactics will fuel the conflict for another 50 years. His actions are radicalising Muslim youth across the globe.”

    He urged Israel to be more patient and to cultivate moderate Palestinian voices.

    An Israeli government spokesperson, Eylon Levy, told the BBC Wallace’s choice of words were “unfortunate language” and that Israel was targeting those who carried out the 7 October attack and was putting in place “unprecedented measures to get civilians out of harm’s way”.
    Levy said: “What will radicalise a new generation is if the terrorists who burned people alive, and tortured children in front of their parents, and raped Israeli women and girls, literally get away with murder.”
     
    #1088     Dec 18, 2023
    gwb-trading likes this.
  9. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    Some are saying that Saudi Arabia may actually have more influence in resolving the Middle East situation than the U.S. The question is if Saudi Arabia will step up and use its political influence and money to guide a path towards peace and a two state solution -- which in many ways was the intent of the Abraham Accords.

    How Saudi Arabia Could Use Its Leverage in Gaza
    Riyadh might have a great deal of influence over the future of Israel and Palestine, but it is waiting for a genuine and viable peace process.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/12/18/saudi-arabia-israel-gaza-mbs-leverage/

    Even Republican Senator Graham is praising Saudi Arabia and the Biden administration's work to pull them into the path forward. Showing how the rhetoric coming out of D.C. is crossing the aisle in search of a solution.

    Sen. Lindsey Graham praises Biden admin’s ongoing efforts to normalize Israel-Saudi Arabia relations
    In an appearance on “Meet the Press,” Graham said he wasn’t interested in impeaching Biden but instead wanted to work with the administration to address the Middle East conflict.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/wh...in-ongoing-efforts-normalize-israe-rcna130137
     
    #1089     Dec 18, 2023
  10. gwb-trading

    gwb-trading

    I agree that the conflict in Gaza has set back the peace process at least 20 years. But it was not going anywhere under the Netanyahu administration anyhow.

    At this point, Israel is unlikely to stop its Gaza campaign until Hamas is eliminated as a military and political entity. Leaving Gaza under Hamas rule is unacceptable to Israel; the big question becomes what will the replacement be.

    No country is going to standby and allow 1400 of its citizens to be murdered without hunting down and eliminating the terrorists.

    The big question(s) to be addressed at this point are:
    1. Can more aid be delivered to Gaza to help the Palestinians caught in the conflict? The situation is becoming increasingly desperate.
    2. Can fuel or electric be provided to desalination plants and hospitals so water and critical medical care can be provided in Gaza. Can this be done without Hamas stealing the fuel (like they have done with all the previous fuel deliveries)? Can hospitals controlled by Israel within Gaza be setup with medical teams from other countries to provide care?
    3. Can the number of medical evacuees to Egypt be increased? This program was shut down because Hamas kept trying to send injured militants rather than civilians.
    4. Can a better system of safe zones within Gaza be set up for the displaced Palestinian civilians in order to reduce the casualties?
     
    #1090     Dec 18, 2023