There is clearly something wrong with a situation when so many people just keep telling you to go away and stop asking questions. my favorite one was from another post where the someone - not sure if you - said something like, 'no prop firm is 100% compliant' and 'the SEC doesn't give a shit' about that in regards to an official CBOE memo which EVERY other firm has changed their policy due to, and the questions come up in audits every year. One firm just closed down due to that memo, so don't blow it off. All this brushing under the rug stuff is crazy. That is fine if you want to take the risk and you have a great deal etc, but do you want to be responsible for other people getting involved? This was a simple, non-controversial question and you went off the hook. If you don't want my advice, just put me on 'ignore'. But let other people ask good questions, jeez. The crazier everyone goes on the easy questions it seems like there is more to hide? Simple question - if you are with CTG, will you get paid if a CTG trader blows up since CTG is through their deposit? Just suggesting a prospective trader should ask WTS this question, and if the answer is no, then just trade with WTS direct. Not so complicated or controversial...
Listen its fine to play devils advocate and ask important questions. You go way beyond that and troll this board............ The answer is my account would be safe unless WTS blows up......
Fair enough. I know some peops are getting upset about me asking questions, but I would think the answers would only help CTG and WTS if the answers are what they themselves are putting out there. Overall, I'm trying to push people to ask certain questions for themselves. As long as you have it in writing or you are otherwise confident your account with CTG is safe unless WTS fully blows up, and you aren't taking their word for it, meaning you have it in writing, great. I'm sure WTS will write out the same answer to the other people asking and the issue is done. I do appreciate the answer. I have other questions also. If you don't want to answer any of them, just ignore them, but they are serious questions, so please do go crazy on me for asking like I am accusing or poking my nose where I shouldn't be. If you don't want to answer, just ignore them. They are easy softballs questions anyways. What does CTG add to WTS for you? Do they have a better trading floor or different rates or something else specific you can't get at WTS? And also, regarding training, did you learn to trade there? (and if so, how was the training? Meaning, are you making a reasonable living from it? If you are new, I understand you won't have an answer). Finally, did most of the guys there pass the 56? I guess if you're remote you may not know. But I am curious if they're doing a good job helping their guys pass the test. Thanks.
I just get a bad vibe from you. My gut tells me you are up to something and the motive is more than just advocating that new traders due their due diligence. I just read every post from you on here and every single one was aimed at shedding doubt on WTS or one of its branches. There is no real trader or average joe that would spend the time and effort that you are doing to troll this board. What is your profession? These last questions really bother me. You have stated you have no interest in joining a prop firm. These are not genuine questions of intrigue. You are fishing for something. Almost as if you are building a case against WTS and its branches. Trying to establish that they are an illegal operation and show no real motive to generate successful traders. Listen if there is something you need to tell me or others on this board then come clean. It just seems like your beating around the bush by playing devils advocate.
I ask you to read my whole response before you react. I am going to save this in case it gets taken down, so I can repost it somewhere else it if necessary. I'd like to get some really good criticism of my ideas and thoughts, so I am not saying anything blatantly wrong or that is easily cleared up. Hopefully I am just outright wrong. In the meantime I am heading to sleep. At the end comment, critique, but don't worry about my motives. I'll clear up my motives here. I'm telling you I think it is a bad choice for a newbie, as I've said elsewhere, but the more I learn, the more I worry. So my motivation is to get the people to ask the hard questions themselves. For all I know, I am on here getting slammed and attacked by owners. I don't see any mass support forming against my points. And I haven't heard many contradictory answers with actual evidence sited. Most scarily, no one actually gives evidence (sights contracts, conversations with this owner / operator of WTS or CTG etc, sights their contracts, sites any first names of super successful traders.) Nothing. No newbies on here saying the training has worked and how much they are making. The owners should come on here with their focus report and dispute it. Do you have a role there that is official enough to answer my questions as a representative of the company? If so, that would be great. What is your position? Happy trader is good but not what I am looking for. Here we go: I did a lot of due diligence, sited actual documents from SEC.gov and CBOE memorandums, and websites. I also pointed out where I found inconsistencies on advertising material from the broker dealer WTS and its subs (for example, CTG and Principal Trading Partners do not clear at Wedbush (I called Wedbush and they had no idea who the heck they were) because they aren't broker dealers (thus they don't show up on SEC.gov)). Also, those two sites put that your deposit is is held in at Wedbush, and FDIC and SIPC protected entity, but your deposit is not held there. Call Wedbush. They said no way. This is invented. Your deposit is held either with WTS or in some cases it is possible they could be held with the subgroup. Neither WTS's traders, nor the subgroup's traders are protected by SIPC or FDIC. I'll reiterate some of the rest really quickly. I was hoping for some positive answers from you to make me feel better, but I got more worries on my motives. Ok, here we go again. I would prefer if responses came from an owner or if they whoever responds can site actual evidence. 1) Using the balance sheet, I did it on another post, if it was taken down, someone let me know by posting and do the math and post it on a different site, I found out (using some generous towards WTS assumptions) that the top guys at WTS were making just over $40,000 before splitting it with WTS. WTS has the right to dispute this if they want. But the reason a limited amount of information is required to be public, which I used to find this out, is that the public has the right to know their broker dealer's financials. I used what is available on SEC.gov to figure this out. 2) The sub-groups. My logical mind can't figure out what the benefit of this is. If you are going for the low cost model, why is it that you need the sub-groups. It would make WTS more viable if they made the money themselves. Plus permitting sub-groups to write false items on their website (as I described above) or having a sub-group run out of an apartment seem like terrible ideas. If WTS already runs the low cost model with training as they pitch, what value add to the subgroups add. The potential negatives we have discussed in this post. If it isn't clearly spelled out by the parent, then there are some serious negatives if one guy in a sub group blows through his money and the other pooled capital amount the sub-group leader and his traders have down. Whose responsibility is it to make those other trader traders in the sub whole again? If there is a clearly written legal disclaimer - would be in the operating agreement but getting an email from WTS would be better, then fine, this point goes away. 3) Compliance - Part 1: CBSX is not allowed to have offshore trading. What is the deal with the World Flag Link on the CTG home page? - example 2 - How is Nevis Trading legally related to JC Trading and thus the Associated Persons (the owners of JC Trading at least) able to help operate Nevis Trading, an offshore LLC. - Part 2: From another thread today I believe. How, with the CBOE memo from October 1st, 2010, can they give 100% or 99% payouts? It is extremely clear that 'all or virtually all' means 100 or 99%. Yet they still do it. No other firm does. It is straight out non-compliant. Basically, you are getting lied to if you think your payout is going to stay with you forever. It is already banned at other firms. And your money is locked for a year, so you'll be stuck. It isn't even like you can pull your money and open a customer account. So be ready for them to get a fine on that, or the payout to be changed if / when they get caught. (Since CBOE audits yearly, they are bound to get in trouble. The memo states the deal terms have to be clear and on top of the trader's pile of paperwork. Here's the kicker on this - if these accounts get determined customer accounts, the firm's Net Capital is going to have to be recalculated going back like those 99% payout deposits are segregated customer money. Then they won't have enough money. OTHER CBOE FIRMS HAVE HAD THIS HAPPEN TO THEM ALREADY, AND ARE SHUT DOWN.) 4) Capital - Part 1 - I asked EvoTrader to find this out or anyone but no one wants to or can get the answer. What out of their money in the firm is Class A money (the ultimate owners) and what is Class B (or some other class, but essentially the trader's money)? If it is primarily the trader's money, then there is trouble here. There are operating expenses. Compliance personal, salaries, office space, monthly regulatory CBOE costs, yearly independent financial audit, accounting, legal, etc. etc. etc. If it is the trader's money the firm is running off, if they hit a bad patch, then the firm is going to do hardcore into the the 'trader partners' money. THIS HAPPENED THIS YEAR AT A FIRM CALLED LIGHTHOUSE. Same situation. There is nothing in prop firm operating agreements outlawing this, which is why it is so essential to figure out if they are making money or not. Capital part 2 - Does anyone know the amount of US traders they have? They say a ton, but let's go with the 400 I have heard. Everyone can call the owner and pick a # they want to use on this. Take their $3,800,000 which is the number they have at Wedbush off the top of my head. Multiply $3.8 million by 6.5 which is their max net capital. Now divide by 400. I got $61,750 for average buying power per trader. This is a very low figure in my opinion (I repeat, in my opinion). I do not think a living in the US can be made if most people have $61,000 bp. And even if you triple it, it is $180,000. Go ask the sucessful traders are other firms how much they have, and it is always going to be $400,000 and up. $61,000 to $180,000 seems very concerning. 5) Training to trade stocks, and the commitment to it (this is part of why I asked about the 56). I believe rebate trading is taught as the primary strategy. Correct me if I am wrong. I heard from a friend the best rebate trader at WTS made $10,000 in August, but a huge chunk of people quit as well because BAC is almost impossible to stay consistent in compared to C. If in a great month, most of the firm makes $500 dollars, that is okay in a 3rd world country. Not NYC, and not in the United States. At the firm I am at, about 15 people made over $100,000 in August, which some really big numbers, and the newer or more average guys made significant chunks of money as well. ] ] ] Anyways, I reiterated it for you. These are my concerns. I think they all are legitimate questions to ask. I am not sure what they mean, even if they are all true. Maybe they're just on the wrong track business model wise. Either way, I would appreciate not getting killed for asking good, tough questions on these issues. I would also appreciate good feedback. If we can get some answers, there will be no need to speculate. Thanks for reading through the email.
if a trader is concerned about the safety of there risk deposit with a group they could go with wts direct nyc office for a deal. One trader blowing up his account & how will it affects other traders money? who knows any new or experienced trader should do there homework before joining any prop firm. if you don't ask questions before risking your money then your either ignorant or lazy people must take responsibility for there actions / trading is risky period
"The answer is my account would be safe unless WTS blows up.."that remark is correct but so what. the same could have said of MF Global etc.
SgtSlottter: It's important to ask the "tough questions" as you state, however there is some reason why you seem overly concerned about WTS and their financials. What is stopping YOU from contacting the owners in Montreal or a U.S. branch office directly and getting the answers you seek on this forum? There are ample warnings posted on these boards to stay away from unregistered firms, as many traders have had their money stolen (Team Trading, Element Trading, and more recently the allegations by traders against Epiphany Trading, etc). It's the unregistered firms with shady operations that gave the prop industry a black eye, causing SEC scrutiny and more regulations. People do business with whom they feel they can trust, period. This is true whether they seek out the firm or learn about a firm through a referral. Building trust normally includes the following (in no particular order): * Trust in a firm's operations/management/history/financials * Stability of platform and trade executions, access to tech support * Overall commission and payout * Training/mentoring (if required) With CBSX firms facing a loss of traders due to the 56 exam, the most compelling argument from all of your posts is in reference to the firm's Class A vs. Class B capital. Since capital contributions are "at risk" and not SIPC protected, a trader may want to inquire if their current prop firm is going have any material changes to their model. Just my two cents.
When you join a prop firm, the capital you put up is not SIPC or FDIC insured. SIPC is for retail traders and FDIC is for bank accounts. Money put up at a prop firm allows you to "buy in" to the company to become a "member", usually class B or class C, with no voting rights. Your money is as safe as the reputation of the owners and generally the success of the firms business model.
Good job taking down my post. I was trying to help you out by giving my position and my experience.... Man, they should change the board to just "elitists."