WTS - JC Trading

Discussion in 'Prop Firms' started by textrader4, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. I am in search of a CBSX firm since I'm currently at Cy Group and it seems like the SEC is shutting down these types of firms (like Epiphany)

    I called WTS's main NY number and there are just voice prompts to reach different people...nothing for sales, trade support, etc. After pressing 0 and getting another recording I called back and randomly picked a person to talk to. Very frustrating!

    I told the guy I wanted more information on opening an account with WTS. He asked me where I lived and told him Ohio. He told me to call Jeff who runs their Midwest branches. I asked why he just couldn't give me more info and he said that you cannot open an account directly with their main office, and that all accounts need to be opened under a branch.

    So I called Jeff, who happens to run JC Trading Group. As a coincidence I talked to him about 4 years ago when I first got into trading. I was going to go with JC at the time but their deposit requirements at the time were too high.

    He explained that they have a Michigan WTS trading floor, a large WTS remote group, and are in the process of opening another branch next month. He also clarified his relationship to WTS: he is licensed with them and the traders trade on the CBSX with WTS as the Broker Dealer. I only sign WTS paperwork and my money is held at WTS and all payouts come directly from WTS. At the end of the year I get a K1 from WTS. Since I don't have a Series 7 I have to pass the Series 56 which WTS will sponsor me. Also, he offered me a rate much lower that I have at CY and still using Laser.

    I spent two full days reading numerous posts on elitetrader about prop firms. My conclusion was to get away from unregulated firms and either trade at a BD that requires either a 56 or 7. There seems to be a lot of misinformation on elitetrader about WTS but after talking with Jeff I feel very comfortable trading with them.
  2. Is Nevis a branch of WTS or Oceanside ?
  3. great information, thanks. so if i understand it correctly, as long as wts is a SEC registered firm and is a broker dealer, then it is completely above board to trade with them without having to worry about sec shutting their doors right? is this true even if you do not have 25000.00 to put up? i know you have to pass the series 56 and all but that is small potatoes in my book. why do some firms require the series 7 and others require the series 56?
  4. So what if one of JC (Jeff's) other traders blow up with WTS. Do you get paid?

    Let's skip the words 'blow up'. Just use, 4 crappy JC Traders lose 6k each.

    JC's deposit is $25,000 (or you can fill in how much, it would help). So they have 4 guys who lose 6k each in NFLX. Now, you make 4k in something else. I hope more, but we're not talk about the high end firms here.

    JC had 1,000 in their account at JC. Do you get paid your 4k?

    Can they back this up in writing?

    We would also like to know why JC doesn't admit they are a branch of WTS on their posts. I guess they are no longer a branch or partner of Oceanview.

    I guess what is happening is that all the low end sub groups, JC, principal, Crapital Traders Group, LES trading, all are converging into WTS. Doesn't make them stronger. That is called dropping all your junky trader's onto someone else's BD. Time worn tradition of trying to avoid regulators.

    That being said, unless I have missed other data to this point, goto SEC.gov. This has the US Bd's financials. See my other posts for the scary math on what either the average WTS trader makes ($4600 a year) or, if you assume, as other WTS defenders have, that 350 out of 400 WTS traders lose money, and the other 50 make money, he average for the 50 positive guys is 43,000 dollars. Have fun iving i.n the exurbs of Helena, Montana on that salary.

    Firms I know have traders that easily made more than 43,000 in a day, multiple days last month.

    IS this WTS place is a total joke? I have serious concerns that the US piece is not kosher after reviewing their SEC.gov financials. Can see my worries on another post.
  5. I have confirmed with compliance at WTS that your money is held at WTS and that no other traders or branches balance or account has any effect on your balance or ability to get paid.

    Of course, you shouldn't take my word on it and you should conduct the proper due diligence as people suggest. The easiest way is to simply make a phone call instead of listening to pure speculation from anonymous people (who usually have a motive) on a forum.
  6. reddy09



    How much did you lose at WTS trading?

  7. I never claimed to have lost any money there.

    I put up math from public filings - http://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/companysearch.html - which makes it appear two things:

    1) their traders are not good. The firm's 2010 PNL divided by its traders - or alternately calculated using their '50' good traders out of 400 someone else suggested - you still can't give a reason why making (pre firm cut) 4000 A YEAR or 40,000 a year when calculated the second way is enough money to live in the United States.

    2) This leads me to believe the firm continues to run by sucking in newbies with 'job offers' which turn out to be $1,500 deposit down deals, where they teach you how to trade NOK. This also makes me question how long the US operation will be around (don't know anything about the Canadian other stuff b/c it doesn't have publicly available info).

    3) Separately front he SEC's website, I question why they have anonymous sub-groups run from people's apartment's recruiting for them. Obviously this is suspect to anyone looking for a real company to trade at.

    4) if you join them as a new trader, you will waste more of your life than your money. Get a real job. Don't waste 3 days to a year staring at ALU and Sprint and SIRI. This is sad.

    No one has challenged the math. It is their SEC filing and can be seen online. I'm open to redoing it if someone has other ideas on why it looks so pathetic.
  8. Regarding Nevis, I believe they are a separate company and not associated with WTS or Oceanview, however they refer U.S. traders to JC since they can't take U.S. traders given that they are offshore (on the island of Nevis).

    Regarding the financials, WTS may have more assets than mentioned in their SEC filings given their main office is in Montreal, and thus the domestic filings may not reflect the whole picture of their financial condition.

    There is ALWAYS a risk with any prop firm. It's been quoted before on several threads, here's the official statement from the CBOE regarding a trader's capital contribution at a CBSX firm, found on Reg 10-101 from the CBOE.org site:

    "- It should have complete paperwork for all class members, including signed LLC agreements and traders agreements which provide a clear description of the relationship between the broker-dealer and trader/member and that:

    Capital contributions must be locked-up for one year; and
    - Funds invested as capital are subject to all the risks of the broker-dealer, including risks related to other trader losses."

    At some point after conducting due diligence, you simply have to trust the firm that you feel comfortable with sending your capital.
  9. How often are you paid?
  10. The balance sheet online is their officially SEC, independently done and filed audit.

    Money in Canada is not a part of the financial situation of the US broker dealer. If it was, it would be listed as some form of collateral or as a Letter of Credit. Call the CBOE or SEC for verification, but this one I promise you is basic.

    My analogy - Charlie Vaccarro and Oliver Velez had personal money, or in some other random LLC, but do you think it would be recoverable if it wasn't an asset of Team Trading?

    The answer is, barring fraud, you can't pierce the corporate veil, so no, you can't get to the Canadian money unless it is on that balance sheet, regardless of the supposed personal wealth they brag about.

    There was a guy here also who said the court ruled the assets of the (pre Team Trading) Vaccaro owned entity, HLV Trading, was as far as anyone could recover in lawsuits and bankruptcy of HLV.

    I didn't say the firm's financials were suspect specifically, I just don't think the traders make money and that it is run super thin. Where I have been pushing is that if you want to see your own money again, before giving them a cent, someone should answer how much Class A money for operating is in there versus if the company is being run on the deposits of traders (Class B member contributions), which is considered firm capital in this legal structure and there isn't anything to stop that...

    #10     Sep 22, 2011