WTF ? Cant believe market is going up like this !!!

Discussion in 'Trading' started by zanek, Nov 5, 2010.

  1. MKTrader

    MKTrader

    You kept going long all year only to get whipsawed. Of course, you didn’t brag about that.

    You (and other permabulls here) finally got lucky in mid-August. Call it "broken clock syndrome." Now, suddenly you, Tin Foil and the rest are self-proclaimed master technicians and economic wizards. You "called the bottom," saw it coming and see nothing but blue skies ahead. Delusions of grandeur indeed.

    Please. This is "fooled by randomeness" to the Nth degree. You can't make a cogent argument about the economy to save yourself. Deal point-by-point with Hussman's article and we can talk. I seriously doubt you can make it through the first two paragraphs without getting over your head.

    The only way we go into a new secular bull market (without dealing with a host of issues first) is a Zimbabwe or post-WW1 Germany scenario.
     
    #91     Nov 8, 2010
  2. Strong bid in the market to lean against thanks to helicopter ben, throw a dart at a stock list, can't go wrong, as we use to say around here, <b>100%</b> upside to go :D
     
    #92     Nov 8, 2010
  3. Not so fast. On a healthy economy, M&A is a sign of bull market. What we have here, is the large corp. refuses to hire people, they are afraid of either a deflation, or jobless recovery, very slow growth w/ anemic consumer spending etc., but at the same time, they want you to buy their stock.

    So instead of hiring more worker to create more output, they know there is not enough demand. Take a look at the major bellweather stocks' earning report in Q3, so many of them missed on revenue, both US based and Intl. That's a sign that there are not enough consumer buying.

    So what did they do? They engage in M&A. They buy smaller co., laid off those workers, embedded that co. asset into their own bal. sheet to boost up their stock value. But that's not growth, in fact, there is no growth within.

    All we have is 2 co. w/ x amt. of workers, they merge into 1, and a percentage of the x amt. of workers got laid off, thus, the "cost cutting", and stock of this new co. looks better.

    This kind stunt won't last. It only boost up a stock for 2 weeks at the most. To make matter worse, every time this happens, they laid off so many thousands of US workers, it creates higher unemployment. And last time I check, higher unemployment is bad for the econ. and for the US stock market. Remember you are buying the future value of a stock.
     
    #93     Nov 9, 2010
  4. Visaria

    Visaria

    From Reminscenses:


    Slow as my progress seems now, I suppose I learned as fast
    as I possibly could, considering that I was making money on
    balance. If I had lost oftener perhaps it might have spurred me
    too more continuous study. I certainly would have had more
    mistakes to spot. But I am not sure of the exact value of
    losing, for if I had lost more I would have lacked the money to
    test out the improvements in my methods of trading.
    Studying my winning plays in Fullerton's office I discovered
    that although I often was 100 per cent right on the market that
    is, in my diagnosis of conditions and general trend -- I was not
    making as much money as my market "rightness" entitled me to.
    Why wasn't I?
    There was as much to learn from partial victory as from
    defeat.
    For instance, I had been bullish from the very start of a
    bull market, and I had backed my opinion by buying stocks. An
    advance followed, as I had clearly foreseen. So far, all very
    well. But what else did I do? Why, I listened to the elder
    statesmen and curbed my youthful impetuousness. I made up my
    mind to be wise and play carefully, conservatively. Everybody
    knew that the way to do that was to take profits and buy back
    your stocks on reactions. And that is precisely what I did, or
    rather what I tried to do; for I often took profits and waited
    for a reaction that never came. And I saw my stock go kiting up
    ten points more and I sitting there with my four-point profit
    safe in my conservative pocket. They say you never grow poor
    taking profits. No, you don't. But neither do you grow rich
    taking a four-point profit in a bull market.
    Where I should have made twenty thousand dollars I made two
    thousand. That was what my conservatism did for me. About the
    time I discovered what a small percentage of what I should have
    made I was getting I discovered something else, and that is that
    suckers differ among themselves according to the degree of
    experience.
    The tyro knows nothing, and everybody, including himself,
    knows it. But the next, or second, grade thinks he knows a great
    deal and makes others feel that way too. He is the experienced
    sucker, who has studied not the market itself but a few remarks
    about the market made by a still higher grade of suckers. The
    second-grade sucker knows how to keep from losing his money in
    some of the ways that get the raw beginner. It is this
    semisucker rather than the 100 per cent article who is the real
    all-the-year-round support of the commission houses. He lasts
    about three and a half years on an average, as compared with a
    single season of from three to thirty weeks, which is the usual
    Wall Street life of a first offender. It is naturally the
    semisucker who is always quoting the famous trading aphorisms
    and the various rules of the game. He knows all the don'ts that
    ever fell from the oracular lips of the old stagers excepting
    the principal one, which is: Don't be a sucker!
    This semisucker is the type that thinks he has cut his
    wisdom teeth because he loves to buy on declines. He waits for
    them. He measures his bargains by the number of points it has
    sold off from the top. In big bull markets the plain
    unadulterated sucker, utterly ignorant of rules and precedents,
    buys blindly because he hopes blindly. He makes most of the
    money until one of the healthy reactions takes it away from him
    at one fell swoop. But the Careful Mike sucker does what I did
    when I thought I was playing the game intelligently according to
    the intelligence of others. I knew I needed to change my
    bucket-shop methods and I thought I was solving my problem with
    any change, particularly one that assayed high gold values
    according to the experienced traders among the customers.
    Most let us call'em customers -- are alike. You find very
    few who can truthfully say that Wall Street doesn't owe them
    money. In Fullerton's there were the usual crowd. All grades!
    Well, there was one old chap who was not like the others. To
    begin with, he was a much older man. Another thing was that he
    never volunteered advice and never bragged of his winnings. He
    was a great hand for listening very attentively to the others.
    He did not seem very keen to get tips -- that is, he never asked
    the talkers what they'd heard or what they knew. But when
    somebody gave him one he always thanked the tipster very
    politely. Sometimes he thanked the tipster again -- when the tip
    turned out O.K. But if it went wrong he never whined, so that
    nobody could tell whether he followed it or let it slide by. It
    was a legend of the office that the old jigger was rich and
    could swing quite a line. But he wasn't donating much to the
    firm in the way of commissions; at least not that anyone could
    see. His name was Partridge, but they nicknamed him Turkey
    behind his back, because he was so thick-chested and had a habit
    of strutting about the various rooms, with the point of his chin
    resting on his breast.
    The customers, who were all eager to be shoved and forced
    into doing things so as to lay the blame for failure on others,
    used to go to old Partridge and tell him what some friend of a
    friend of an insider had advised them to do in a certain stock.
    They would tell him what they had not done with the tip so he
    would tell them what they ought to do. But whether the tip they
    had was to buy or to sell, the old chap's answer was always the
    same.
     
    #94     Nov 9, 2010
  5. Visaria

    Visaria

    The customer would finish the tale of his perplexity and
    then ask: "What do you think I ought to do?"
    Old Turkey would cock his head to one side, contemplate his
    fellow customer with a fatherly smile, and finally he would say
    very impressively, "You know, it's a bull market!"
    Time and again I heard him say, "Well, this is a bull market,
    you know!" as though he were giving to you a priceless talisman
    wrapped up in a million-dollar accident-insurance policy. And of
    course I did not get his meaning.
    One day a fellow named Elmer Harwood rushed into the
    office, wrote out an order and gave it to the clerk. Then he
    rushed over to where Mr. Partridge was listening politely to
    John Fanning's story of the time he overheard Keene give an
    order to one of his brokers and all that John made was a measly
    three points on a hundred shares and of course the stock had to
    go up twenty-four points in three days right after John sold
    out. It was at least the fourth time that John had told him that
    tale of woe, but old Turkey was smiling as sympathetically as if
    it was the first time he heard it.
    Well, Elmer made for the old man and, without a word of
    apology to John Fanning, told Turkey, "Mr. Partridge, I have
    just sold my Climax Motors. My people say the market is entitled
    to a reaction and that I'll be able to buy it back cheaper. So
    you'd better do likewise. That is, if you've still got yours."
    Elmer looked suspiciously at the man to whom he had given the
    original tip to buy. The amateur, or gratuitous, tipster always
    thinks he owns the receiver of his tip body and soul, even
    before he knows how the tip is going to turn out.
    "Yes, Mr. Harwood, I still have it. Of course!" said Turkey
    gratefully. It was nice of Elmer to think of the old chap.
    "Well, now is the time to take your profit and get in again on
    the next dip," said Elmer, as if he had just made out the
    deposit slip for the old man. Failing to perceive enthusiastic
    gratitude in the beneficiary's face Elmer went on: "I have just
    sold every share I owned!"
    From his voice and manner you would have conservatively
    estimated it at ten thousand shares.
    But Mr. Partridge shook his head regretfully and whined, "No!
    No! I can't do that!"
    :'What?" yelled Elmer.
    "I simply can't!" said Mr. Partridge. He was in great
    trouble.
    "Didn't I give you the tip to buy it?"
    "You did, Mr. Harwood, and I am very grateful to you.
    Indeed, I am, sir. But --"
    "Hold on! Let me talk! And didn't that stock go up seven
    points in ten days? Didn't it?"
    "It did, and I am much obliged to you, my dear boy. But I
    couldn't think of selling that stock."
    "You couldn't?" asked Elmer, beginning to look doubtful
    himself. It is a habit with most tip givers to be tip takers.
    "No, I couldn't."
    "Why not?" And Elmer drew nearer.
    "Why, this is a bull market!" The old fellow said it as
    though he had given a long and detailed explanation.
    "That's all right," said Elmer, looking angry because of
    his disappointment. "I know this is a bull market as well as you
    do. But you'd better slip them that stock of yours and buy it
    back on the reaction. You might as well reduce the cost to
    yourself."
    "My dear boy," said old Partridge, in great distress "my
    dear boy, if I sold that stock now I'd lose my position; and
    then where would I be?"
    Elmer Harwood threw up his hands, shook his head and walked
    over to me to get sympathy: "Can you beat it?" he asked me in a
    stage whisper. "I ask you!"
    I didn't say anything. So he went on: "I give him a tip on
    Climax Motors. He buys five hundred shares. He's got seven
    points' profit and I advise him to get out and buy 'em back on
    the reaction that's overdue even now. And what does he say when
    I tell him? He says that if he sells he'll lose his job. What do
    you know about that?"
    "I beg your pardon, Mr. Harwood; I didn't say I'd lose my
    job," cut in old Turkey. "I said I'd lose my position. And when
    you are as old as I am and you've been through as many booms and
    panics as I have, you'll know that to lose your position is
    something nobody can afford; not even John D. Rockefeller. I
    hope the stock reacts and that you will be able to repurchase
    your line at a substantial concession, sir. But I myself can
    only trade in accordance with the experience of many years. I
    paid a high price for it and I don't feel like throwing away a
    second tuition fee. But I am as much obliged to you as if I had
    the money in the bank. It's a bull market, you know." And he
    strutted away, leaving Elmer dazed.
    What old Mr. Partridge said did not mean much to me until I
    began to think about my own numerous failures to make as much
    money as I ought to when I was so right on the general market.
    The more I studied the more I realized how wise that old chap
    was. He had evidently suffered from the same defect in his young
    days and knew his own human weaknesses. He would not lay himself
    open to a temptation that experience had taught him was hard to
    resist and had always proved expensive to him, as it was to me.
    I think it was a long step forward in my trading education
    when I realized at last that when old Mr. Partridge kept on
    telling the other customers, "Well, you know this is a bull
    market!" he really meant to tell them that the big money was not
    in the individual fluctuations but in the main movements that
    is, not in reading the tape but in sizing up the entire market
    and its trend.
    And right here let me say one thing: After spending many
    years in Wall Street and after making and losing millions of
    dollars I want to tell you this: It never was my thinking that
    made the big money for me. It always was my sitting. Got that?
    My sitting tight! It is no trick at all to be right on the
    market. You always find lots of early bulls in bull markets and
    early bears in bear markets. I've known many men who were right
    at exactly the right time, and began buying or selling stocks
    when prices were at the very level, which should show the
    greatest profit. And their experience invariably matched mine --
    that is, they made no real money out of it. Men who can both be
    right and sit tight are uncommon. I found it one of the hardest
    things to learn. But it is only after a stock operator has
    firmly grasped this that he can make big money. It is literally
    true that millions come easier to a trader after he knows how to
    trade than hundreds did in the days of his ignorance.
    The reason is that a man may see straight and clearly and
    yet become impatient or doubtful when the market takes its time
    about doing as he figured it must do. That is why so many men in
    Wall Street, who are not at all in the sucker class, not even in
    the third grade, nevertheless lose money. The market does not
    beat them. They beat themselves, because though they have brains
    they cannot sit tight. Old Turkey was dead right in doing and
    saying what he did. He had not only the courage of his
    convictions but the intelligent patience to sit tight.
    Disregarding the big swing and trying to jump in and out
    was fatal to me. Nobody can catch all the fluctuations. In a
    bull market your game is to buy and hold until you believe that
    the bull market is near its end. To do this you must study
    general conditions and not tips or special factors affecting
    individual stocks. Then get out of all your stocks; get out for
    keeps! Wait until you see -- or if you prefer, until you think
    you see the turn of the market; the beginning of a reversal of
    general conditions. You have to use your brains and your vision
    to do this; otherwise my advice would be as idiotic as to tell
    you to buy cheap and sell dear. One of the most helpful things
    that anybody can learn is to give up trying to catch the last
    eighth or the first. These two are the most expensive eighths in
    the world. They have cost stock traders, in the aggregate,
    enough millions of dollars to build a concrete highway across
    the continent.
    Another thing I noticed in studying my plays in Fullerton's
    office after I began to trade less unintelligently was that my
    initial operations seldom showed me a loss. That naturally made
    me decide to start big. It gave me confidence in my own judgment
    before I allowed it to be vitiated by the advice of others or
    even by my own impatience at times. Without faith in his own
    judgment no man can go very far in this game. That is about all
    I have learned to study general conditions, to take a position
    and stick to it. I can wait without a twinge of impatience. I
    can see a setback without being shaken, knowing that it is only
    temporary. I have been short one hundred thousand shares and I
    have seen a big rally coming. I have figured and figured
    correctly -- that such a rally as I felt was inevitable, and
    even wholesome, would make a difference of one million dollars
    in my paper profits. And I nevertheless have stood pat and seen
    half my paper profit wiped out, without once considering the
    advisability of covering my shorts to put them out again on the
    rally. I knew that if I did I might lose my position and with it
    the certainty of a big killing. It is the big swing that makes
    the big money for you.
     
    #95     Nov 9, 2010
  6. ....game over. It's a bull market.
     
    #96     Nov 9, 2010
  7. candles

    candles

    1400 by Christmas would be interesting
     
    #97     Nov 9, 2010
  8. Visaria

    Visaria

    I sold my position in silver this morning at 2800. After I did that, i thought to myself, "WTF am i doing?" I recalled the passage from Reminiscences that i posted above. I re bought my position in silver at 2820.

    edit: currently trading at 2850
     
    #98     Nov 9, 2010
  9. What if you are wrong? If I am wrong, I will get stopped out and then examine the market to see how it is acting, and if I can see any predictable pattern or opportunity, I will then position myself to try and best take advantage. What will you do if you are wrong?
     
    #99     Nov 9, 2010
  10. Yes, I'm aware of that thanks. What's your point? Surely you are aware that there are not just American residents and citizens posting on this board.
     
    #100     Nov 9, 2010