ECHO and Bright both charge a penny a share compared to the 1.1 to 1.4 you stated in your previous post. ECHO and Bright do not have ANY ticket charges whatsoever. ECHO and Bright also both pay out 100% to all their traders FROM DAY ONE. ECHO and Bright charge around 3 cents per share for bullets with NO minimum (Why would worlco make a trader who can only trade 100-200 shares buy a 1500 share bullet?) Both firms have training but it is not required... Both firms charge a desk fee ($400-$600) to traders that do not meet certain volume (they have to at least recover some quote/exchange fees if the trader is just going to sit there...) From what I hear - Both firms are restructuring their rates for 2002 to lower them further! All I say is you have to look at all the sides of the coin. Don and Rtharp are welcome to correct me if I misquoted - As far as staring out with 25k - You can borrow it from Worldco or from a bank - you STILL pay for using the money.
***ECHO and Bright both charge a penny a share compared to the 1.1 to 1.4 you stated in your previous post.*** Once you turn profitable, you will have 1 cent a share. You are comparing people with capital with people who don't have capital. And I am not sure what Bright's treatment for new traders is, I thought ECHO gives substantially better rate to newbies. ***ECHO and Bright do not have ANY ticket charges whatsoever.*** Once you turn profitable, you will pay no ticket charges whatsoever. See above. ***ECHO and Bright also both pay out 100% to all their traders FROM DAY ONE.*** Once you turn profitable, you get 90-95%. Once you have some money in your account like people at ECHO/Bright does, you will eventually get 100%. ***ECHO and Bright charge around 3 cents per share for bullets with NO minimum (Why would worlco make a trader who can only trade 100-200 shares buy a 1500 share bullet?)*** This is a weakness of our current fee structure, but soon it will be addressed. As I said before, once you have some experience under your belt, your commission rate becomes lower. Besides, once you start doing a little bit size, it is not even an issue. Smaller traders can always split bullets among each other in the mean time. This is an oversight, but it is not a fatal flaw. ***Both firms have training but it is not required... *** To this day I have not attended a seminar or read a book that really helped me in trading. I thought Tony's books were great but I haven't made a dime using his ideas. No seminar can convert a loser into a winner, that's all I am trying to say. ***Both firms charge a desk fee ($400-$600) to traders that do not meet certain volume (they have to at least recover some quote/exchange fees if the trader is just going to sit there...)*** We have zero fees even if the trader trade 500 shares a day. Last time I checked the volume requirement for a rebate at Echo/Bright is pretty steep for a new trader. Can I ask you what is the maximum size I can trade at Echo/Bright if I only have 20K in my account? What if I get into a losing streak and blow half of my account into 10K? Can I still do my normal trading size? I would like to remind you that Worldco has two type of clients. The rates I mentioned is for someone who start off with nothing. We give everybody a chance to do what they want to do for a living. Bright and Echo do not compete with us in this category, go visit Andover, Schonfeld, Generic, you will see that Worldco smoke them all in this arena by a HUGE margin. Those from Bright or Echo, who is already profitable, bring a copy of your P&L record to us, we WILL beat their rate, it is just that simple. And you can lose 15K in Worldco and leave with your credit record intact, continue with your life, that is such a lame comment with bank loan I don't think we even need to go over it. You will lose 5-10K MINIMUM when you start out fresh, how are you going to support your trading when your account gets cut in half? "From what I hear" mean squat. Every recruiter promise you the moon but few give out cold hard numbers. Do I really have to tell you that Don Bright tried to recruit me (Gee Hitman you can save 10-20% trading at Bright!) before via e-mail and when I did send him my numbers he dodged the bullet as usual (and I think I am better than 60% of the recruits he gets so it can't be that I don't deserve his attention)? Do you really think Bright is better than Worldco for people with capital?
I'm sure if many traders such as recent grads had 25K or more, Bright or Echo may be the better choice. But for someone just starting out, a $400-600 desk fee on top of losses and commissions can be a huge hurdle. What kind of size is a new trader going to trade anyway? As for your last comment, is that joke or are you actually serious? How many banks lend people money to trade? How many would lend to a newer trader?
Hitman - I do not know how you can judge a firms training program without being there, but when I was 22, I guess I had all the answers too. No one states anywhere that a loser can be converted into a winner because of training, but you can increase a traders chances by introducing strategies or methods. Furthermore, through reading trading books I may have not "made" money, but I have SAVED untold thousands. I am in the position to say that I learned something at BOTH firm's training (I have been trading since '97). Let's stay on subject... I am not blasting your choice or anyone's choice in trading firms. Who am I to judge different firms without trading there? (I will leave that to you and all of your experience) The party line of "bring your sheets and we will beat anyone's rate" is standard practice right now in the trading world. The firms are fighting over our business...I guess that is why there are so many commercials on elitetrader right now. I will not get into trading Nasdaq as I know worldco cannot compete per Hitman's previous postings. As far as the comments on the desk charges at Bright or Echo, the way I see it, Hitman wants to charge a new trader a $2 ticket each side for every different stock traded. That is absurd to me and would cost a new trader more than the desk charge if he traded more than 8 different stocks a day on average. Do the math. Like worldco, both Bright and Echo are going to work with a trader to keep him from losing money and will intervene. Maybe the trader is trading too much size or is just trading stupid (I have had my days). I know when I am not trading right when I feel like my phone might ring or get a tap on my shoulder, and yeah, I may have to change my size. I know traders that started with 25k and have taken money out to live on and now their trading account is around $13k. Management still lets him trade the same size BECAUSE THEY KNOW HIS STYLE AND RISK. But that is different than your question to me - "Can I ask you what is the maximum size I can trade at Echo/Bright if I only have 20K in my account? What if I get into a losing streak and blow half of my account into 10K? Can I still do my normal trading size?" That is a hard question to answer as there are to many variables but most firms offer 10x leverage. So if your normal size fit in a 100,000 buying power (using your example) SURE YOU CAN. BUT why would you want to trade your normal trading size? You just blew 50% of your cash and your method was not working, shouldn't you reduce till it turns around? It is 6 one side half a dozen the other. That is why I continue to state that a trader (new or old) must look at all sides of the coin. We can both manipulate the numbers to fit whatever argument presented. I admire your spirit and enthusiasm but do not get too excited. I think competition is a good thing for traders and keeps firms working to keep our business. A better deal is always around the corner, I know, I once traded $20 tickets (1997) and thought it was great! Oh, BTW - Did I mention the firm that does not charge tickets or commissions...they went out of business. LOL! Have a good night! (I am hitting the sack! Trading on the West Coast sucks as I usually have to get up around 4:45 am.) Jonathan "He who knows nothing is confident of everything" - Anonymous
Didn't you know that Bank of America has the "New Trader Loan Program"? It is offered along side the "Trader Blowout Recovery Loan Program". My favorite is the "GE/HON Arb Loan Special" for those involved in that fiasco who kept putting it on "hoping" it would come in.
Don't get so uptight....you said in your first few post how flaming would not upset you. Hey, you crossed the line with your self promotion just like don did, but at least he got back on track. IMHO you are way to aggressive with your recruiting....what if we all copied you and don, it would sacrifice the integrity of this board. I think Gene Weissman is a great example of how to participate on this site without crossing the line.:eek:
Bryan: I am dealing with competitors, and I need to be ruthless and STATE THE FACT. Kirk is bringing up valid points regarding the firms, LEGIT questions I must address, not "oh please do not post this on ET". And all competitions are welcome, you start your own thread about your own firm and I will not have a single post on it. If someone compares the firms on my thread then of course I will have to comment on it. Kirk: Nobody save money by reading books, just because it tells you to cut your losers doesn't mean you can do it. We all know what we must do in trading but we don't do it when the time comes. The same goes with trading strategies. As I said, Bright & Echo are professional trading firms, they are most definitely not proprietary if they don't back you up with capital. I look at them the full service version of Interactive Brokers, secondary competitors. Our primary competitors have always been true prop. firms that do back their traders with capital, and you will find that right off the bat we beat them by a huge margin. I don't charge a $2 ticket because I want to, it is firm's policy that a new trader starting out with zero capital will have to pay a little bit more than those who came with capital. This way when they hit their first gross positive week we will be able to reward them with something and give them a sense of accomplishment. Whatever extra they pay versus someone who start out fully capitalized is more like interest charge / insurance money. It is easy to say "bring your line and beat anyone's rate", but nobody ever does it. See my above example, I can tell you that I have been contacted by someone from just about every one of our competitors since I started to post my journal threads, and everyone who saw my rate said "wow it is an awesome rate" and they can't beat it. 10x leverage you can buy up to 2000 shares of a $50 stock. What if you get into a losing streak and you are down to 6K? At Worldco our firm backs you up with capital, and at equivalent talent level, our traders will start making more money quicker simply because they have access to TRUE FIRM CAPITAL.
My point exactly!!!! you sound just like don did when he first came on this site ranting and raving. now you've already adapted that hardass trading manager attitude......give it a rest. as far as your take it or leave it attitude: put an advertisement warning on the title thread and i won't hassle you. otherwise i'll keep on you when you get out of hand.
After only a little over a year of trading, Hitman has transformed himself into a veteran trader. Now, he has gone into management. For anyone reading, I would be wary. Have more trust in those who have been in the business for a while and have worked with various trading firms. They are the ones who REALLY know. Most people think they know but they don't. I know that the attrition rate is high in this business, but 16 months as a trader is not long enough to see all the faces of the market and all aspects of this cut throat business.
I have never said I am a veteran trader, all of my numbers are public, I am a profitable trader with potential and I am the leader of a new trading team, nothing more.