Wrong, if you put in a limit order with the intent to get filled, canceled it and placed it in again, you never spoofed. Get your facts straight, pal. You copy pasted your bla I am referencing in another thread and it remains factually wrong. Spoofing is putting in orders that you never intend to see filled. Layering is doing the same but one sided at multiple levels. And your hybrid pro-rata/fifo orders are one of the most abusive algorithms in existence. Basically you can legally frontrun anyone who puts in regular limit orders. Large size wins. That is not what equitable markets aim at. Perhaps you should trade somewhere in Russia or the Ukraine if such low ethical and moral standard is your yardstick. Goodness.
Anyone who puts good faith limit orders into the matching engine gets hurt. Simple as that. Imagine you provide liquidity and are pretty high up in the queue. Some hybrid pro-rata/fifo algo joins the queue and a portion of that order gets matched at your price level before you get filled. Sweet isn't it? That's where US exchanges are at. It's a fucking pay for play game that has nothing to do with equitable and fair markets anymore. A system designed by greedy exchanges and in cahoots with unethical players to frontrun smaller orders. We need to go back to the basics. One single centralized exchange for each product with market and limit fifo orders. Everything else is a joke and completely destroys trust and faith in fair executions.
Ha, perhaps that was and still is your despicable fratboy approach. What one usually learns as a beginner in a competitive discipline? That there are opponents but that all players in the game hold themselves to fair standards to win the game. That the better may win, not the least moral or least ethical. And players who can't abide by fair rules either get punished and thrown out or they need to bribe the judges (exchanges here and even regulators to some degree, to look the other way)
In the cash stocks the market will usually have to trade through your limit order right? Isn't this because there is so much sub-penny orders/dark pools/multi exchange routing etc? I'm thinking liquid issues here... Isn't their counter to this that they are providing liquidity to the other side and that this sub-penny orders have a net positive effect for market participants?
I have never heard of such orders on US Equities lit exchanges. I see that CME has it for Futures, but not sure if they apply to all instruments. So you think regulators are enforcing anti-spoofing, and the likes, for the benefits of a fair market? I doubt it very much. In your opinion, which participants are hurt by spoofing? I'm not arguing for or against, just want to understand who is being negatively affected by this practice which has a momentary effect on price.
I am not sure of US equity exchanges. I don't trade US equities. Who gets hurt? Anyone who sends regular limit orders. That someone frontruns you does not have any effect on price at all. It has an effect on you getting potentially not filled at all at your specified price level. Here is my gripe with those locusts: generating alpha purely from own skills, being informed, and having an astute sense of probabilistic outcomes is an incredibly rare skill set. It's probably as close as someone gets to the holy grail. This is eroded further and further by players in this market who could not make a dime but still generated millions and sometimes billions in profits through dishonest means. Look at SC Cohen. A formerly filthy trading outlet that made billions though insider trading and all sorts of dishonest and often illegal schemes. Look at him now, he can hardly make a dime under the close watch of the SEC. Same with the guys who speak so eloquently here. Most of the information they exchanged is usually only known to CFOs of hedge funds, guys who shuffle paperwork, obtain and maintain licenses, negotiate data subscription fees and the like. They generally can't trade even a 100 dollar account. Making money being completely ethical and taking the fiduciary duty to investors seriously is incredibly difficult and rare. And dishonest players make this business ever more difficult. Like a football player who constantly breaks and bends the rules and somehow always gets away with it because he knows the referee. Frustrating to say the least. I let the experts continue with their sweet talk.
I agree with you on above. However, I want to point out that as far as games being played in the books, and all the special order types, all this is because large participants need to hide their activity as to not move the market. I think that's what @raVar means - spoofing as a part of execution strategy, not as preditory alpha generation.
I have often wondered when the dom is really bouncing around in the MNQ then it just sits on a price...are the HFT's spoofing in the background with each other causing this momentary stall? ES
There are no sub-penny orders, but you can get sub-penny execution if someone internalizes the execution - order never goes to the exchange. If you get execution in sub-penny, it was most likely internalized. https://meanderful.blogspot.com/2017/04/sub-pennies-rule.html?m=1