"Why won't God heal amputees?"

Apparently your wounding is projecting anger into everything you read that suggests that your wounding is influencing your perception.

That's textbook...

 

Maybe you guys could start you own thread and have your battle there. I would like this thread to be a nonconfrontational exercise in religious logic. Thanks.

 

Proof #14 - Examine Jesus' miracles

If someone were to come to you today and say, "I am God!", what would you do? Yes, you would immediately ask for proof. Of course you would. And you would not want goofy proof.You would want real, solid, tangible proof.

No normal person, and I mean no one, would accept anything less than rock solid proof from a person who claims to be God.

Why should it be any different with Jesus? Jesus was a man who claims to be God. If he is God, then he ought to be able to prove it in a real, inimitable way. If he cannot prove it then, quite clearly, he is not God.

A Christian would say, "But Jesus HAS proven it! Just look at all of the miracles he did in the Bible! He healed the sick! He changed water into wine! That PROVES that Jesus is the Lord!" Does that make sense to you? Imagine that someone, today, were to come up to you and say, "I am God, and I will prove that I am God by healing the sick and turning water into wine!" What would you say? Be honest. You would not believe this person because:

Everyone has seen all sorts of "faith healers" who can "heal" the sick. And we all know that this sort of "healing" is quackery. If it were true, then we would not need doctors, hospitals or prescription medicines.

Turning water into wine... Doesn't that sound like something that a B-grade David-Copperfield-wannabe magician would do in a nightclub act? There are a dozen ways that you could stage things to make it look like water is turning into wine. There is no reason why a normal person would accept a magic trick as proof that someone is God.

Neither of these miracles can be scientifically tested today. Not one of Jesus' miracles left any tangible evidence for scientists to study.
It is as simple as that. If someone claimed to be God today, you would never believe it if the evidence consisted of faith healing and magic tricks. Never. Yet billions of people claim that Jesus' faith healing and magic tricks prove that he is God.
Let's imagine that Jesus truly is God. What might he have done to prove it? He could have started by taking one of his most famous quotes from the Bible and acting on it. In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says quite clearly:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
To prove that he is God, Jesus would have moved a mountain. Especially since it is so easy. And Jesus would have written something down to explain himself. Here's what the first page of Jesus' book might have looked like:
My name is Jesus, and I am God. I know there are a lot of people out there who will doubt that I am God, so let me start off by proving it to you. Take a look at Mount Sinai. Everyone knows that, until today, Mount Sinai stood near here. It is the mountain where God, my father, gave Moses the Ten Commandments.
Mount Sinai vanished this morning, and what was left in its place was a perfectly smooth, polished stone base measuring four miles square. Hundreds of years from now, people will find that Mount Sinai landed near a place that will be called Newark, New Jersey. When scientists dig into the mountain, they will find that the bottom of the mountain is also completely smooth and polished, and that the bottom of the mountain in New Jersey perfectly matches the polished plain nearby. Scientists will be able to align the mountain and the plain, looking at it rock crystal by rock crystal at a microscopic level. I have said many times that, if you have faith, you can move mountains. I moved Mount Sinai to show how easy it is, and to prove that I am God.

I know that that may not be enough, so let me offer a second proof. If you draw a circle, you know that there is distance across the circle. Let us call it the diameter of the circle. There is also a distance around the outside of the circle. Let us call it the circumference. If you divide the circumference by the diameter, you get another number. Let us call it Pi, and its first 6 digits are 3.14159. Pi is an irrational number. It is a number that is made up of an infinite number of non-repeating digits.

There will come a day when machines called computers will calculate billions of digits of Pi. If you calculate Pi out to the millionth trillionth digit, here is what you will find:

9823456451237823492278583495083498745....

Now, having proven that I am God to any rational being, through my documentable movement of a mountain and through my foreknowledge of Pi at the millionth trillionth position, here is what I want to say to the human race as your creator, and as the creator of the universe...

Wouldn't that be awesome and amazing? If we had such a book, and if Mount Sinai had actually moved, then there would be no questions about Jesus. We would all believe that he is God. How could we not? Imagine what such a book would say on the following pages. A book like that, I am sure, would leave all of us in awe.
Why would Jesus not do that? God, supposedly, has already written a book called the Bible. And God, supposedly, has already done all sorts of things according to that book. God, supposedly, parted the Red Sea, carved the Ten Commandments into stone, went to the trouble to incarnate himself, etc. So why not have Jesus write a book, and leave behind real, tangible evidence for all of us to see?

For any normal, rational person, the reason is obvious -- God is imaginary. We would not believe that anyone today is God without concrete proof. Jesus doesn't get a pass because he lived 2,000 years ago. Jesus, if he existed at all, was a human being just like you and me. All of the stories in the Bible are just that -- stories.

 

Understanding the Rationalizations
If you ask a religious person about Jesus' divinity, you may find yourself in a conversation like this:

Norm: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God?
Chris: He did! He performed many miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!

Norm: Why did he not prove that he is God in a way that is definitive and scientifically provable -- for example, by moving a mountain?

Chris: He could not do that! That would take away man's free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.

Norm: Why, then, did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Gospels?

Chris: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.

Norm: I thought that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.

Chris: No.

Norm: Isn't that what you just said?

Chris: No. What I just said is that Jesus' miracles prove that he was God.

Norm: So why didn't Jesus perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?

Chris: Because that would take away our free will.

Try having this conversation yourself with a Christian and you will find it to be a very odd discussion. The circular logic will make you dizzy:
Jesus had to perform miracles to prove his divinity, and that doesn't take away free will...

...But if Jesus performed miracles that we could see and scientifically verify, it would take away free will.
Any unbiased observer can see reality. The reason why Jesus did not perform concrete, verifiable miracles is because Jesus was a man like any other.
Here is another rationalization that believers will frequently use to try to explain Jesus' behavior. In the book "The Case for Faith," the author Lee Stroble interviews Peter Kreeft, Ph.D. Dr. Kreeft says the following:

"Scripture describes God as a hidden God. You have to make the effort of faith to find him. There are clues you can follow. And if that weren't so, if there was something more or less than clues, it's difficult for me to understand how we could really be free to make a choice about him."
Clues? Hidden? According to the Bible God incarnated himself. He created an entire human being named Jesus. That is not a "clue" -- that is a huge, obvious piece of evidence. It is very hard to "hide" a 170-pound human being who is running around performing miracles on every street corner. Then you collect the stories of those miracles and publish them in a book. Where is the hiding in that?
There are examples of God's desire for publicity throughout the Bible. The best known is God's parting of the Red Sea in the book of Exodus, chapter 14:

Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
That is impressive, and it is utterly obvious. Thousands of Israelites witnessed this event. There are many other events that are equally obvious: manna from heaven, the Ten Commandments carved onto stone tablets, the Passover massacre and so on. All of it is described in the Bible, which God wrote so that billions of people can read about these events and experience them vicariously today.
It is pretty hard to hide something that you do in front of thousands of people and then describe and publish in billions of books. Clearly God is not a hidden God.

But there is an even more impressive sign that we often forget. If God exists and God wrote the Bible, then rainbows are actually proof that God exists. God is not hiding at all. If you read Genesis 9:12-13 you will find this:

And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth..."
What could be more obvious than that? God left a sign for all future generations, according to the Bible. Clearly God does not want to hide.
There are also plenty of cases in the New Testament. For example, Matthew, Chapter 17:

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

These are not exactly the actions of a God in hiding. Apparently the free wills of Peter, James and John were not that important to God. And again it is published in the Bible so that billions of other people can read about it.
Or take this passage from the book of Matthew, Chapter 3:

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
Again, not exactly a hidden God.
Or this passage from the book of Luke, Chapter 2:

And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord. This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

The free will of the shepherds was certainly tarnished a bit here.
In 1 Corinthians 15:6, Paul says,

Then he [Jesus, after the resurrection] appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time.
Those 500 people must have lost their free will. And John says:
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written. (John 21:25)
That's an awful lot of miracles -- so many that the world would not have room for all the books describing them. Presumably at least one person witnessed each miracle. Think of how many names fill just one phone book. Now imagine a whole world full of phone books. That's a lot of people. Weren't all of their free wills affected? How is God hiding if millions of people saw Jesus and the miracles he performed?
Clearly the notion that "God is hiding" is pure rationalization.

 

Dear ikh,

Your arguments against the existence of God are obviously lengthy and well-thought out. I wonder two things:

#1: Why do you spend so much time, energy and effort trying to convince anyone who will listen that there is no God? What is the personal payoff to you in exchange for such massive effort on your part? What is your personal reward?

#2: How do you spend the majority of your free time here on earth? Inevitably you will die, just like the rest of us. Do you spend your free time in reflection, enjoying the wonders of this earth and your life within regardless of its creation?

Our time here is a very fleet journey. We'll all discover what comes next sooner than later.

Best Trading Wishes
Austin

 

My search for the truth has been a long one. I am simply sharing what made me see the light in hopes others still sitting on the fence will be able to make an easier decision.
I am not forcing anyone to stop believing in whatever version of god they believe in. I simply ask that you read the information presented and reflect on what you believe and why you believe it.

 

ikh, I missed the part in your response about exactly what benefits you specifically for such massive, time-consuming efforts in your search for truth. What motivates you to expend such time and effort supporting your belief?

I'm simply curious what benefit you pose to others by helping them with their quest for the truth. What does your version of the truth offer anyone else in benefit to them?

 

Bit of a glaring contradiction there. If you accept Stu's "faith," and believe in freedom of belief "whatever that belief may be," then there shouldn't be any request for "remedy-seeking" because there is no problem. (As you in fact said, that you have no problem.)

As for calling atheism a faith, that is more than a bit disingenuous. It is technically true that ultimate certainty cannot be had regarding the absence of a first mover. Nevertheless, dismissing the likelihood of a speculative proposition is not the same as embracing a speculative proposition. One can certainly debate whether or not skepticism is a wise choice in the end. But pretending that skepticism and faith are the same, in order to intentionally conflate belief and absence of belief, does no favors to the argument.

As for the acceptance of other faiths, surely there has to be a limit somewhere. Deeply held beliefs influence real world decisions, which in turn affect us all. Attitudes of faith can all too often morph into hostility towards knowledge. Stem cell research and the value of general scientific knowledge come to mind; evolutionary biologists and sufferers of Parkinson's syndrome have a very big bone to pick with the religious right. And then there is the wonderful example of Iran, a theocratic state.


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http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=137

Neka (northern Iran), Aug 31 – The orphaned 16-year-old girl hanged in front of residents in this town close to the Caspian Sea on August 15 suffered years of brutal violence, exploitation and torture in the hands of relatives, local officials and plain strangers, and in a country where girls are the most vulnerable members of society, she had no one to go to for help.

The tragic picture emerges from dozens of interviews conducted by an Iran Focus correspondent with Atefeh Rajabi’s classmates, friends, relatives and neighbors in this humid, overcrowded industrial town that sits on a busy highway linking Tehran with the north of the country.

The hanging of Atefeh Rajabi has shocked the residents of Neka, who still differ widely in their assessment of the girl, but none voices support for the punishment that she has received. An air of tension and eerie silence hangs over the town’s smoke-filled tea-houses, or chaikhanehs, where men spend hours chatting quietly in clusters of three or four over tea. In a summer month like August, business should be booming in this town as thousands of Tehran residents flock to the sandy beaches of the Caspian. But right now, the visitors are for the most part not holidaymakers.

“There are lots of strangers who come and we are used to them,” says Askar, a young shopkeeper who sells a variety of citrus fruit jams. “But right now, all of them are asking about the girl. They want to know who she was and how she died.”

The shock of Atefeh’s execution has gone far beyond this town. Even in a country that has the highest number of executions in the world and routinely executes minors, Iranians across the nation have been bewildered by accounts of the hanging of a 16-year-old girl. The fact that the religious judge himself put the rope around her neck and the letters of “congratulations” from the town’s governor to the judge, commending him for his “firm approach” have only added to the torment and pain many say they have felt.

“Atefeh was not a well-behaved girl, that’s for sure. But do you hang a girl for having sex with an unmarried man?” asked Fariba, a girl in Atefeh’s neighborhood, who like many others did not want to be identified.

According to judicial records, by the time Atefeh was 16, she had been convicted five times of having sex with unmarried men. Each time she spent some time in jail and was given 100 lashes (Under Iran’s law, punishment for having sex with a married man would have been far heavier.)

Atefeh’s father is an unemployed drug addict whose whereabouts are not known. Her mother died when Atefeh was still a child and she was left in the care of her octogenarian grandparents, which meant no care at all.

“She was abused by a close relative,” says Mina, one of the few girls in Neka who identify themselves as Atefeh’s friends. “But she never dared even to talk about it to anyone. Tell your teachers? They’ll call you a whore. Tell the police? They lock you up and rape you. Better keep your mouth shut.”

Mina sobs as she recalls her friend’s tormented life, but many of these horrendous experiences are everyday facts of life for girls being brought up under a rigid theocratic regime that has institutionalized misogyny in its laws and practices.

“She sometimes talked about what these ‘Islamic moral policemen’ did to her while she was in jail. She still had nightmares about that. She said Behshahr Prison was the Hell itself.”

Alijan, a local grocer with graying hair, said many parents did not want Atefeh to socialize with their kids, because they thought she would have a corrupting influence on other young girls.

“Who can blame them?” he said, with a deep sigh. “In this country, if you’re a man and you go to jail, you can forget about having a future. Now imagine if a girl goes to jail. She was hopeless.”

“I knew this girl very well and she did not deserve what they did to her,” explains a middle-aged woman who once taught Atefeh in the local girls’ school. “She was lively, intelligent, and, of course, rebellious. She wouldn’t take injustice from anyone. But the authorities here equate these qualities in a girl to prostitution and evil. They wanted to give all the girls and women a lesson.”

Hamid was one of those fathers in the neighborhood who did not want her two daughters to befriend Atefeh, but with hindsight, he feels the guilt of not having done anything to help the girl.

“I think the most devastating event in her life was the death of her mother,” Hamid said. “Before that, she was a normal girl. Her mother was everything to her. When she died, she had no one to look after her.”

A pharmacist, whose shop is not far away from the Railway Square, where Atefeh was hanged, recalls her final, painful hour. “When agents of the State Security Forces brought her to the gallows, I felt cold sweat running down my back. She looked so young and innocent, standing there in the middle of all these bearded men in military fatigues. Judge Reza’i must have felt a personal grudge against her. He put the rope around her neck and left her dangling on the gallows for 45 minutes. I looked around and everyone in the crowd was sobbing and damning the mullahs for doing this to our young people.”

Atefeh had no access to a lawyer at any stage and her death sentence was upheld by a Supreme Court that is dominated by fundamentalist mullahs. Haji Rezaii, the religious judge, was reportedly so incensed with Atefeh’s “sharp tongue” during the trial that he travelled to Tehran to convince the mullahs of the Supreme Court to uphold the death sentence.

The tragically short life of Atefeh Rajabi its brutal end are a reminder of the plight of millions of girls in a country where, according to state-owned newspapers, 75 percent of the population live below the poverty line, 66 percent of women are victims of some form of domestic violence, and over 70 percent of women suffer from varying degrees of depression. Iran remains, in the words of UN Human Rights Rapporteur Maurice Copithorne, “a prison for women.”

 

Disproving holy books (which has been done) doesn't necessarily disprove the existence of a creator.

 

Seems reasonable, though, to think that a creator with no holy books, and no attempts at direct communication, has very little interest in being understood, let alone worshiped.

Such a being would almost seem to say, "Stop expending so much energy trying to know me or understand me--you can't do it. I have concealed myself for a purpose. Now get back to work focusing on my creation, and maybe one day your accumulated knowledge of reality will take you somewhere interesting. In fact, if this amazing, tragic, wonderful world hasn't enthralled you already--if observed reality isn't beautiful enough, mysterious enough and compelling enough to hold you in awe here and now--then maybe you need to wake the f*k up."