Another example Imagine that I tell you this story: A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business. A very bright flash of light appeared. A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times. Then the man asked, "What should I read?" The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before." The man ran home to his wife. While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel. At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams. Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said. Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth. The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there. The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today. [Source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002] What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary. But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind. Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary -- as imaginary as flying reindeer. If you are a Christian, please take a moment right now to look back at the Mormon and Muslim stories. Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly -- we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that. An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional. One final example Now let me tell you one final story: God inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world. Mary and her fiancé, Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God. God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby. In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel in an attempt to kill Jesus. As a man, God's son claimed that he was God incarnate: "I am the way, the truth and the life," he said. This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God. But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion. His body was placed in a tomb. But three days later, the tomb was empty. And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places. Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again. Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers. He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc. This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die. The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story. This, of course, is the story of Jesus. Do you believe this story? If you are a Christian, you probably do. I could ask you questions for hours and you will have answers for every one of them, in just the same way that I had answers for all of the Santa questions that my friend asked me in Example 1. You cannot understand how anyone could question any of it, because it is so obvious to you. Here is the thing that I would like to help you understand: The four billion people who are not Christians look at the Christian story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. In other words, there are four billion people who stand outside of the Christian bubble, and they can see reality clearly. The fact is, the Christian story is completely imaginary. How do the four billion non-Christians know, with complete certainty, that the Christian story is imaginary? Because the Christian story is just like the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. There is the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. People outside the Christian faith look at the Christian story and note these facts: The miracles are supposed to "prove" that Jesus is God, but, predictably, these miracles left behind no tangible evidence for us to examine and scientifically verify today. They all involved faith healings and magic tricks - see this proof. Jesus is resurrected, but, predictably, he does not appear to anyone today - see this proof. Jesus ascended into heaven and answers our prayers, but, predictably, when we pray to him nothing happens. We can statistically analyse prayer and find that prayers are never answered - see this proof. The book where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John make their attestations does exist, but, predictably, it is chock full of problems and contradictions - see this proof. And so on. In other words, the Christian story is a fairly tale, just like the other three examples we have examined. Now, look at what is happening inside your mind at this moment. I am using solid, verifiable evidence to show you that the Christian story is imaginary. Your rational mind can see the evidence. Four billion non-Christians would be happy to confirm for you that the Christian story is imaginary. However, if you are a practicing Christian, you can probably feel your "religious mind" overriding both your rational mind and your common sense as we speak. Why? Why were you able to use your common sense to so easily reject the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story, but when it comes to the Christian story, which is just as imaginary, you are not? Try, just for a moment, to look at Christianity with the same amount of healthy skepticism that you used when approaching the stories of Santa, Joseph Smith and Mohammed. Use your common sense to ask some very simple questions of yourself: Is there any physical evidence that Jesus existed? - No. He left no trace. His body "ascended into heaven." He wrote nothing down. None of his "miracles" left any permanent evidence. There is, literally, nothing. Is there any reason to believe that Jesus actually performed these miracles, or that he rose from the dead, or that he ascended into heaven? - There is no more of a reason to believe this than there is to believe that Joseph Smith found the golden plates hidden in New York, or that Mohammed rode on a magical winged horse to heaven. Probably less of a reason, given that the record of Jesus' life is 2,000 years old, while that of Joseph Smith is less than 200 years old.
You mean to tell me that I am supposed to believe this story of Jesus, and there is no proof or evidence to go by beyond a few attestations in the New Testament of a Bible that is provably meaningless? - Yes, you are supposed to believe it. You are supposed to take it on "faith." No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc. Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense? For example: Christians know that when the Egyptians built gigantic pyramids and mummified the bodies of their pharaohs, that it was a total waste of time -- otherwise Christians would build pyramids. Christians know that when the Aztecs carved the heart out of a virgin and ate it, that it accomplished nothing -- otherwise Christians would kill virgins. Christians know that when Muslims face Mecca to pray, that it is pointless -- otherwise Christians would face Mecca when they pray. Christians know that when Jews keep meat and dairy products separate, that they are wasting their time -- otherwise the cheeseburger would not be an American obsession. Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. This book, if you will let it, can tell you why. A simple experiment If you are a Christian who believes in the power of prayer, here is a very simple experiment that will show you something very interesting about your faith. Take a coin out of your pocket. Now pray sincerely to Ra: Dear Ra, almighty sun god, I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Ra's name I pray, Amen. Now flip the coin. Chances are that you won't get past the fifth or sixth flip and the coin will land tails. What does this mean? Most people would look at this data and conclude that Ra is imaginary. We prayed to Ra, and Ra did nothing. We can prove that Ra is imaginary (at least in the sense of prayer-answering ability) by using statistical analysis. If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Ra each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. Ra has absolutely no effect on the coin no matter how much we pray. Even if we find a thousand of Ra's most faithful believers and ask them to do the praying/flipping, the results will be the same. Therefore, as rational people, we conclude that Ra is imaginary. We look at Ra in the same way that we look at Leprechauns, Mermaids, Santa and so on. We know that people who believe in Ra are delusional. Now I want you to try the experiment again, but this time I want you to pray to Jesus Christ instead of Ra. Pray sincerely to Jesus like this: Dear Jesus, I know that you exist and I know that you hear and answer prayers as you promise in the Bible. I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen. Now flip the coin. Once again, after the fifth or sixth flip, the coin will land tails. If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Jesus each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. It is not like there are two laws of probability -- one for Christians who pray and the other for non-Christians. There is only one law of probability because prayers have zero effect. Jesus has no effect on our planet no matter how much we pray. We can prove that conclusively using statitical analysis. If you believe in God, watch what is happening inside your mind right now. The data is absolutely identical in both experiments. With Ra you looked at the data rationally and concluded that Ra is imaginary. But with Jesus... something else will happen. In your mind, you are already coming up with a thousand rationalizations to explain why Jesus did not answer your prayers: It is not his will He doesn't have time I didn't pray the right way I am not worthy I do not have enough faith I cannot test the Lord like this It is not part of Jesus' plan for me And on and on and on... One rationalization that you may find yourself developing is particularly interesting. You may say to yourself: âWell, of course Jesus doesnât answer me when I pray about a coin toss, because it is too trivial." Where did this rationalization come from? If you read what Jesus says about prayer in the Bible (see this proof), Jesus does not ever say, "don't pray to me about coin tosses." Jesus clearly says he will answer your prayers, and he puts no boundaries on what you may pray for. You invented this rationalization out of thin air. You are an expert at creating rationalizations for Jesus. The reason you are an expert is because Jesus does not answer any of your prayers (see this proof). The reason why Jesus does not answer any of your prayers is because Jesus and God are imaginary.
That position potentially argues that existence is greater than God. If God is the "supreme" being, then He/It would have to be self-existing. That would make existence a function or attribute of God. Meaning, he doesn't "require" or need existence to exist but that he/it exists because he does or because he is existence, personified. The very source of the actuallity and conceptualization of existence. God must be self-sufficient. Sort of reminds me of the old ontological argument. Imagine a supreme being - the greatest of all beings. Now try to imagine a being greater than that. You can't. By adding a dependency to God, you imagined something greater than God. Therefore, the God you imagined or was described to you was not the greatest of all beings, but the thing/concept you imagined is greater. In essence, you're assigning existence the title of prime concept. Now, if God is said to have no begining and no end, he just is... And existence, as a concept and actuality has no begining or end, it just is... What's the difference between God and existence on this particular point? So, in the end I can agree to your idea that God is dependent upon existence but only in so much as existence is dependent upon God. A symbiotic sort of relationship, if you will.
lkh your characterization misses by a mile. In the new testament in multiple spots Jesus proclaimed his fulfillment of prophesy in the old testament. "for instance to most readers of the new testament the follow passage is fairly innocuous. "Saying, Blessed [be] the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out. " However to a reader who puts this in context, a critical moment just transpired. Daniel forecast the very day the messiah was supposed to arrive in Jerusalem and be proclaimed as the messiah by people. (In the the old testament. ) Which is why the Pharisees were bent out of shape and asked Jesus to rebuke his followers. Now Jesus's comment takes life. He is telling the Pharisees since I am filling the old testament and the messiah must be proclaimed, if these people were to hold their peace then "the stones would cry out", (and announce me as the messiah) because the prophesy is being fulfilled. You can believe it or not but when a book is written about a man who claims to be the messiah forecast by God in main religious book of monotheism, that is not little fairy tale.
Jem, when i am done with this series i will deal with the prophecies. They are not what they seem. Thank you for the idea.
I don't agree it does any such thing ddunbar. I can. I'm doing it now. However it is not existence I am imagining. You just said I couldn't imagine something now you say I just have.. But anyhow, existence is something which God needs to exist. Where do I say it is greater? You did that not I. Am I? Ok. yes... Existence does not need God is the difference. No God but a grain of sand = existence. But please note , the grain of sand nor God are defined into existence. It is Existence existing. Either or both. Well, we do not fully share that idea. It cannot be a symbiotic relationship as existence does not require God to exist. btw. Thanks for the civil discourse, it makes a pleasant change. It takes me back to the days of darkhorse on ET, for those who remember, when a civil conversation could be held with someone who had an opposing viewpoint on God.
Actually, you can't imagine a being greater than a supreme being. Otherwise, it wasn't really a supreme being. You imagined it by "demoting" the former supreme being. But I guarantee you that you will not be able to imagine anything greater than what you are imagining is a supreme being currently - unless of course, you demote that. It's greater than God because he needs it. God is no longer self sufficient if that is that case. Existence would then be greater conceptually as well as actually than God. OK, I see. You're speaking empirically. Yet, you're mixing something emprical with something which is currently only conceptual. Existence we know to exist (empirical). God(conceptual) we don't. Therefore you are concluding on an empirical level that since existence is actual and in most respects testable, it can exist whether God, who is not empirically known, exists or not. There's no way to contradict or test it currently. So I can't say with any surety that you're right. But I agree your case is reasonable and if there truly is no God, then yes, existence is existence. So there's no material flaw in your argument when viewed on a material and emprical level. On a conceptual level, it's flawed only because God is said to be self-existent, omni-present, with no beginning or end. Sure, these attributes could be purely arbitrary. But there's no conceptual way, given just these attributes, that God requires existence to exist. You're forced into a circular reasoning that starts off as something like: God exists because God is God and requires only himself to be and is the source of all that exists. And thank you too.
I don't want to pick you up word for word on every point, as I think the core of what is being argued might be more to the point, but can you explain what you mean by this : Now I don't see how you can support a position where you say one minute how something can't be done, only to then say it can be done, to say again taht it can't. !? No I didn't I left the former supreme being where It was. It is not demoted. How is Existence greater than God because God depends on it? Is oxygen greater than you because you depend on it? Are thoughts greater than you because you need them when thinking? I don't think (ha) you define thoughts as greater or existence as greater that way, even though you are dependant , as God is , as we are on existence. ?? I am a little surprised though I will admit, how you started out with such a mix up, to end up with such a coherent analysis of my argument. But I suspect, - only my personal bias mind you - that ideas of God fogged things up enough so that I could - couln't - could..... ...although there is just one thing..no.. I will not spoil your excellant synopsis. Conceptual then. God is self-extistent - conceptually God exists by means of (self) existence. God cannot escape from the need of that darned existence stuff ....even conceptually.
well, a legend still exists, now that's a fact. I'm filling up... after all these years....darky, come to daddy crumps, if AXEMAN! Daniel_M and RS7 turn up I might start believing there really is a G...nah.