why THE HELL is it so easy to do the wrong thing...

Discussion in 'Trading' started by Gordon Gekko, Nov 16, 2002.


    i will be honest, i still have no #$%@ing clue!!!!

    THIS POST IS GOING TO BE A NO BS POST FROM ME. a lot of you other losers need to wake up, too.

    NO LONGER do i believe successful trading is some extremely complicated thing that only the real smart guys can do.

    NO LONGER do i believe you need years and years of experience to trade correctly (this assumes you've already traded a while and learned everything you tried doesn't work).

    HERE IS MY ARGUMENT.... i have traded every entry ON THE PLANET. no matter what system i use for entering, somehow i always end up with a loss. SO, that means, someone could fade my trades and make money ON ANY OF MY SHITTY ENTRIES!

    so, aside from scalping, i say f$%# entries. yeah, you could get an entry a little better than the next guy, but you could probably make a decent amount of money with just about anything.

    SO THE NEXT QUESTION IS...........what really is everyone doing wrong? how many of the guys here on ET make a killing every day and how many end the trading day pissed off like me? we all know most of us are probably losers.

    SO WHAT IS IT?????? what are the winners doing differently than the losers?? i'm not talking about having big losers. i NEVER have big losers anymore. but i still certainly get stopped out a lot and have no winners! i can easily lose money!!! i can lose money WITH NO COMPLICATED METHOD OF DOING SO!!!! so can all the other losers!!!! so why bother trying to get complicated when you can already to the WRONG thing CORRECTLY with what you already know!!!!

    WHILE I'M ON THE SUBJECT OF COMPLICATED.... i'm known for wanting to get complicated...... i always talk about adding to winners, scaling out of losers, all kinds of things. BUT AFTER A WHILE, I REMIND MYSELF THAT I LOST SO MUCH MONEY WITHOUT EVER ADJUSTING MY POSITION SIZE. so why would i need to add to a winner if i was able to lose money entering and exiting all my shares at once?!?

    MY BIGGEST PROBLEM IS.........even knowing all this, I STILL HAVE NO F#$@ING IDEA HOW TO REVERSE MYSELF!!!!!!!


    TAKE THURSDAY FOR EXAMPLE...... i made 4 trades..... 3 losers and 1 break even!!!! A FADER WOULD HAVE LOVED ME!!! I TRADED EXCELLENT.......AS A FREAKING LOSER!!!!!

    the funny thing is, what i did, made sense to me. so i'm starting to think, maybe the rare trading winner is thinking in a way that doesn't make sense at first.

    aside from explaining the entry, i will type out how you could have faded my 4 trades. the thing is, when i type this out, it will sound like it won't work.....so i don't get it!

    well here's how i lost, after i will type how to fade me:

    at the entry point, put a stop pretty close by. have a target far away...basically, the target will not get hit often at all. :D then, trail a stop about the same distance as the stop loss.

    this method stopped me out 3 times and gave me 1 break even.

    the opposite would have been:

    make a close target. have a disaster stop far away. stop out when the trade goes against you, BUT THEN FALLS BACK IN YOUR DIRECTION, THE DISTANCE OF YOUR STOP. (the opposite of how you get stopped out of a profitable trade with a trailing stop)

    i know, it doesn't really make sense. i never traded like that either.....but that really is how you could have faded me and been a winner.

    IN SUMMARY, i'm looking to find out how i can trade the opposite of how i trade. the answer should not be complicated, because the way i lose is not complicated.

  2. nitro


    I have asked you repeatedly to post your trades and why you went in, and why you got out. Until then, all you are going to get is "Philosophy" and "MetaPhysics."

  3. nitro,

    i really want to ask you this question. i'm going to sound like i'm doubting you, but i'm not. i really just want to know how you'll respond.

    i remember in another post, your advice to me was that i should write down the value of tick, spoos, etc. on entry. but my question is (and this is the point of my whole thread), i've been able to lose a lot of money WITHOUT looking at tick, etc. so wouldn't it be possible to also make money without looking?

    again, i'm not trying to question your trading ability. i'm just having a hard time understanding why i can lose money SO EASILY...yet to make money, i need to look at tick, spoos, etc.?

    if we were to take a guy off the street who's never traded before, sit him down in front of a chart, and have him tell us when to enter and exit. i bet he would lose using whatever he had in front of him, even if it was just a simple chart of price. therefore, since taking the opposite of his trades is possible, can't we say successful trading is another factor? there must be something that would influence him to make the wrong decisions. why can't that be learned and faded?
  4. nitro



    Until you post your trades, what was on your mind when you got in, what was on your mind when you got out, ALL YOU ARE GONNA GET IS PHILOSOPHY.

    Is that what you want? Who the fuck cares why this or why that? Do you want to talk about sex, or do you want to have sex? Do you want to read about the Physics of how to ride a bicycle or do you get on one and learn?


  5. Magna

    Magna Administrator


    Nitro couldn't be any clearer. Stop thinking, and as the Nike ads say, Just Do It.
  6. Isn't it what I suggested to you on some other thread when I was talking about 6 pt stop-losses that I use? And my targets (I probably did not mention it then) are 9 pts away from my entry, which is not necessarily what you want to have, but who says this does not work. Guess what? The targets get hit more often than the stops and that's enough to make money. It's as simple as that. I use trailing stop-losses after some profits are reached: +2 after 6 pts, +4 after 8 pts. Of course it's good to know when to use a strategy like that and how. But that's another story.

    In other words, to make money, you have to be willing to risk it.
  7. Maybe you should rig up your trading software so that the BUY button sells and the SELL button buys!!

    Also, widen your stops and tighten up your profit objectives.

    Seriously, if you are really CONSISTENT with your losing, I mean day in and day out you lose with consistency, it stands to reason that you could consistently win doing the exact opposite.

    Consistency is a good thing...even if it is a negative consistency. If you were making a grand one day and losing four grand the next, then making 50 bucks the next day, then that's not consistency. So if you're consistently losing, say, $300 a day, then you are probably doing the same things all the time. What you have to do is figure out how you can turn that negative consistency into positive consistency.

    I threw out the idea of switching your buy and sell buttons for the sake of humor, but it actually doesn't sound so crazy does it?

    As Nitro said, it would be helpful to us if you could post some of your trades along with the reasoning behind them. Thanks!!!:D :D
  8. dottom


    Maybe you don't have an edge. Maybe you do but it's small. Maybe you're not applying it correctly.

    But enough maybe's... why not post your trades and discuss your methodology and how you are applying it if you want some real feedback?
  9. Gordon,

    Just by reading your first post, I can already tell you have a big problem. First, you're calling yourself a "loser" and a "bad freakin' trader" and a host of other names. You need to stop doing that. Subconsciously, you're reaffirming the fact that you do suck. You don't suck, you're just learning -- it is part of the game.

    instead of feeding yourself that crap, tell yourself that you are the MAN! Each night before you go to bed, envision yourself as a Wall Street Tycoon. When you are out drinking, shopping, dinner, banging some chick -- tell yourself you are the world's best trader (do not say this outloud while banging a chick, though).

    Make sure you print out some fundamental truths next your monitor -- something like:

    "I am a sharp and focused trader that is patient and disciplined."

    "I realize that a loss means nothing to me psychologically, since losing is a part of winning."

    "Today is filled with opportunities and I will trade those that I find."

    That is first and foremost -- I don't say that stuff like "I suck" anymore because for two reasons. I am getting better and saying that is going to cause me to lose the confidence to trade effectively.

    Second most important thing is to do exactly what Nitro suggested. This man knows what he's talking about -- he's an expert trader. He's willing to work with you and give you advice -- that is GOLDEN.

    As a new trader, you should be going over each of your trades and keeping a database. I keep a database of each of my trades, including:

    a) Was it a winner or loser (duh)
    b) How long was I in the trade for?
    c) If I was stopped out, what would have been the necessary stop to achieve my original target
    d) What major MA trend was I trading with?
    e) What was the reason for my exit
    f) What was the reason for my entrance
    g) Observations about the market at the time

    You and me are at the stage now where we must keep this is up to date and review it on a weekly basis. Trading is HARD WORK -- it is like running a business. If you run a business you don't just sell stuff and rake in cash -- you need to keep inventory, payroll, expenditures, taxes, etc. If you're going to try to take up trading as a career, you can't just make trades and not keep a database and wind up never reviewing your trades.

    You should be keeping a DETAILED account of your trading style. You need to do as much as everyone else does and a lot more to be better than them.

    Also, stay away from ES for awhile -- ES is one of the hardest markets to trade. Don't let anyone else fool you on here -- save that part of your trading battle for when you get promoted to General. Right now we've got our butter-bars and that means sticking to the basics.

    I'm totally in support of you. However, you need to quit the negative talk or you'll perfect an edge -- for losing.
  10. Here are my own observations that I have made that are helping me to improve:

    Tendency to grab a profit while letting losing trades grow large
    At the beginning, I consistently allowed losses to get somewhat large relative to my winning trades (3 to 1 in size). I would cut my losses at a target -- usually +1 point for ES. If it was a stock, I'd jump out at 5 to 10 cents in my favor.

    When I think about it, I'm never going to have a big winner and that is critical to successful trading, IMO. Without the chance of ever getting a great run on a winner, I'm killing myself long term.

    Time in losing trades 3x longer than time in winning trades
    I used to spend more time in losing trades than I do in winning ones. It is very hard psychologically to get out < 1 minute after I make a trade because I realize the entry was incorrect. If you're in a trade and you've got bad "vibes" that is confirmed through some indicator -- ditch the trade.

    Itchy fingers
    I need to keep my finger off the trigger and watch more -- I'm too eager to jump in front of an oncoming freight train.

    The proper use of trailing-stops
    Lately, I let the market stop me in and then stop me out with a trailing stop -- it seems to work out best because:

    a) The market, by stopping me in through a stop-limit, is confirming my direction.
    b) The market, by hitting my stop-loss, is confirming my exit.

    That means that all I have to do is come up with a really good system for trailing-stops and entry and exit are almost decided for me by the market.

    When you think about it -- a limit order is an order that the market must hit and then reverse. With a stop-limit, you're still getting your price, but at least if it triggers, the market is already edging in your direction.

    However, probably the most critical of all that I have learned is to realize that I am a unique person and what I do works for me. You are unique and you'll find your own style as a trader and will be able to capitalize on that at some point.

    Do whatever you need to do to survive at first. Keep the account at break-even. Play to win, but plan for adverse conditions. Also, you can always AIM me for moral support. I can send you some images of cheerleaders.
    #10     Nov 16, 2002