Even pro-Establishment Wiki admits South Ossetia is a de-facto independent state. They fought a war of independence against Georgia in the 90's (and won). Have since been controlled by Russian-loving Communists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia What does it matter? Because it was GEORGIA who was the aggressor and provoked the war. Not Russia. Are you from Georgia? Perhaps a former-Russian break-away Republic? Seems you got me on that one. Civilian count seems to be around 200. With all sides giving bias numbers.
Even pro-Establishment Wiki admits South Ossetia is a de-facto independent state. I am not aware of any country or international organization on the planet that recognizes its independence. Even Russia did not at the time of the conflict (they do now) They fought a war of independence against Georgia in the 90's (and won). Not exactly true. "In 1992, Georgia was forced to accept a ceasefire to avoid a large scale confrontation with Russia...the Georgian government still retained control over substantial portions of South Ossetia" Because it was GEORGIA who was the aggressor and provoked the war. Even if you were right (which is debatable) it still does not explain or excuse Russia's invasion. Georgia did not attack Russia but Russia invaded Georgia. Based on your logic we'd be justified to invade Turkey on behalf of Kurdish separatists.
Putting missles in Poland is no different than the Cuban missle crisis and don't think Patriots won't carry nukes. You can only tighten the noose around the bears neck so much before he turns and bites you. Give them the whole USSR back ...we don't have enough economic problems into the future where our plastic has been maxed out for years. Credibility can't be demanded at the point of a nuke.
South Osseta voted 95% in favor of secession from Georgia (twice). The International "Community" rejected those results - even with poll monitors - because its not in NATO's best interest to have a Communist-friendly state turn back to Mother Russia. Self-determination and democracy only count when its in Americas favor. Thats obvious. And that invalidates their referendum to secede, how? If a People resolve to seceed from a Nation and that Nation responds with military force to suppress it, they're not really "free" or living in a "democracy", are they? Crying about big bad Russia handing Georgia a beat down is stupid. Georgia whacked a bees nest and got stung. Don't you think its hypocritical to accuse Russia of aggression when it's Georgia that provoked the entire conflict to begin with? Do two wrongs make a right? No, they don't. But for Bush to condemn and threaten Russia, when the United States has a long and rich history of throwing themselves into the melay of regional conflicts that have nothing to do with us....just more hypocrisy. What is it Bush said? Nations don't invade other "sovereign" nations in the 21st Century? Begs the question - why Gulf War 1, Gulf War 2, Kosovo, Bosnia, Panama blah blah..... Apparently, those "dont count".
South Osseta voted 95% in favor of secession from Georgia (twice). The International "Community" rejected those results And my family voted unanimously in favor of secession from the US. But the international community rejected those results. Seriously though, not all things are decided by referendums. Otherwise instead of having about 200 countries we'll end up with 50,000 tribes. In this specific case things are even more complicated as the land the Ossetians live on has always belonged to Georgia, even before the Ossetians moved there to escape Mongol rule. And Georgians were ethnically cleansed from South Ossetia long before the referendum so they could not vote. Don't you think its hypocritical to accuse Russia of aggression when it's Georgia that provoked the entire conflict to begin with? Once again, Georgia was trying to resolve its own internal conflict. Whether it was right or wrong it was not Russia's business. Do two wrongs make a right? No, they don't. Exactly but that's the argument you are trying to make. Even if (and it's a big if) Georgia was wrong, that does not make Russia right. What is it Bush said? Nations don't invade other "sovereign" nations in the 21st Century? Begs the question - why Gulf War 1, Gulf War 2, Kosovo, Bosnia, Panama blah blah..... LOL, most of them actually took place in the 20th (not 21st) century. Anyway, I get your point, Bush is bad but Putin doing exactly the same thing is good. Having just stated a moment ago that "two wrongs don't make a right" in your very next sentence you are actually trying to prove that they do.
it is actually seems to be similar to Yugoslavian conflict when a minority was threatened with genocide, when it happened, international community intervened, of course Yugoslavian was right there in European backyard, the same shit happens to a nation that's on outskirts of western civilization, nobody gives a shit - so Russians had to intervene. As far as Bush and the Govt going to wars - the reasons are always purely economic. Name one war where US Govt sent the troops , when it was not about economic interests. Damn, even when entire world was under threat from nazi regime, Roosevelt picked up the fight with Japan, cause it invaded a few f*cking islands the size of Nantucket.
You mean just like Canada resolved Quebec's desire for succession - by bombing the shit out of the entire province and sending armed gangs to kill everybody who speaks with French accent.
The Quebec separatists lost the referendum so there was no reason to send troops, who knows what would have happened if they actually got a majority of votes. At any rate, I was not discussing the appropriateness of Georgia's action, it's a matter of a separate thread, let me just mention that the Ossetians are not exactly blameless in this whole situation and did not go about succession in a peaceful and civilized manner the way the residents of Quebec did. Moreover the Canadian government passed a law "The Clarity Act" which for all intents and purposes amounts to a veto power over the outcome of any referendum so if Canadian separatists persist and get a majority at some point of time in the future, a civil war will not be out of the question. But as I said I was not discussing Georgia, I was talking about Russia and as the other poster appropriately noted two wrongs don't make a right. Even if the actions of Georgia were wrong, that still does not make Russia's invasion "right" or justified. Besides claiming that Bush was wrong to invade Iraq but Putin was justified to invade Georgia is plain silly.
National membership is decided by popular vote. Canada, US, all EU countries, voted on membership. In some cases, war determines secession. South Ossetia won that war. And has since been politically and military independent. Likening the will of 30,000 ethnic and territorially distinct people to a gaggle of 5 that share the same trailer-park. Nonsensical. Mongol rule??? Annexes prior to 1000 BC dont count....LOL Applying your logic to a more contemporary (and relevant) example: perhaps Americans should vacate the continent and let the Native Indians take over? After all, we did steal it from them. Didn't we? "its own internal conflict" What freedom loving democracy bombs the piss out of a break-away province? Lets think about this for a second. Isn't that how Georgia broke away from Russia, to begin with? Declared its independence? Perhaps Georgia would have appreciated Russia bombing the shit out of them when the Iron Curtain fell? Wait a second.... Guess they already did! How does that shoe feel on the other foot? A little snug, perhaps? I'm against both attacks. Thats what "two wrongs, don't make a right", means. [/B][/QUOTE] Georgia ADMITTED they initiated the attack. And still, you can't man-up and admit they were in the wrong. Its pointless debating the facts with you, apparently. In every single instance, the United States either suckered0in or vilified its future opponent to stage conflict. Apparently, Georgia was an unwitting pawn in a larger game of chess. Boo-hoo. Russia committed some real atrocities in Chechnya. But are you gonna sit there and tell me Russias an evil force we must contend with while giving a pass to the United States (and its little lapdog Georgia) who are busy invading countries around the world? Its pure, narrow-minded bullshit. All these Governments are corrupt and its the average, every-day pleb that gets caught in the cross-fire. Seems you subscribe to the retarded Us-versus-them mentality which just perpetuates the whole the thing. Good stuff.
Agree 100%. It could be debated that Afghanistan was largely a justified war. But that begs the question, why did Bush have launch orders signed against Afghanistan sept 10th, 2001...