What's wrong with Iron Condors

Discussion in 'Options' started by jb514, May 5, 2011.

  1. Secatu

    Secatu

    Question as a newbie:

    Is there a buyer/seller opposite every spread or do market makers use single call/put buyers/sellers to offset?

    It seems to me that market makers would not have to automatically offset positions by the exact same position if they can gather single buy/sells to offset. But then again, I don't really understand how market makers work.

    Thanks.
     
    #31     May 7, 2011


  2. ++1

    This is precisely the points that I always tell the people in this board, but are constantly being denied and debutted by certain groups that have hidden interest in this board.

    None of the IC traders profit in long term ( > 10 years) and they will be extreme lucky if they can only break even - commission and slippage will come back to hunt you eventually as the market is actually price correctly in long term.
     
    #32     May 7, 2011
  3. newwurldmn

    newwurldmn

    1. What does "beat the market without taking on significantly greater risk mean?" There are many definitions as to what "the market is" and measures for risk. Is this different from expected value? If not, then name a strategy that would qualify here.

    2. If an investor is trading a particular asset without a specific profit motive on that asset and he isn't driven strictly by profit motive on THAT asset then doesn't that potentially create an expected value positive trade for the counterparty?

    3. By this standard every trading strategy is expected value negative. Isn't this why most traders do not succeed. What they think is some strategy is really random? The successful ones use their skill to determine when a particular set up isn't random. This applies to all forms of trading and probably investing.


     
    #33     May 7, 2011
  4. jb514

    jb514

    Can't you just logically conclude that implied vols are going to be generally rich just due to demand from buyers?
     
    #34     May 7, 2011
  5. jb514

    jb514

    If you are willing to say "none" of the IC traders profit. Then who does?
     
    #35     May 7, 2011
  6. sle

    sle

    It is a truism.
    Anything in the world that is rich is due to demand from buyers and lack of sellers. Question is why the supply/demand curve for vol looks the way it does.
     
    #36     May 7, 2011
  7. jb514

    jb514

    Excuse my ignorance, but please elaborate on this.
     
    #37     May 7, 2011
  8. spindr0

    spindr0

    OK, I get the negative expectancy due to slippage and commissions. But what about diagonalized positions where you're selling volatility (sell near month high IV and buy lower IV of further month)? Isn't it possible for such animals to have positive expectancy? :confused:
     
    #38     May 8, 2011
  9. jb514

    jb514

    Does the IV really change based on expiration? I think in order to optimize you would need to sell the current month and buy the next month once after the volatility crush.
     
    #39     May 8, 2011
  10. sle

    sle

    Well, I am saying that supply/demand curve for implied volatility is not as elastic with respect to actual realized vol as one would expect. Thats what the risk premium is all about.

    Technically speaking, in an efficient market no derivative trade could have any positive expectancy. So, no matter what combination you would come up with, it would not have positive expectation.

    Of course it does, depending on the environment, front vol could be significantly different from the back vol. There are, again, a lot of good reasons for it. Term structure of vol, both in terms of time (different vol for different expiries) and in terms of the strikes is a pretty fascinating thing in it's own rite.

    Well, in the example described you are selling gamma (convexity at the very front) and hoping to protect yourself with cheaper Vega. So, if the realized volatility comes, you would hope that longer dated implied will increase in some proportionate manner and you would be able to alleviate some of your losses. You don't want to be naked short gamma in a crash, you want to be hedged in some way.

    In any case, I am going to sleep so we can continue this tomorrow, God willing.
     
    #40     May 8, 2011