Whatever Happened to Timber Hill?

Discussion in 'Retail Brokers' started by Hurricane, Oct 8, 2003.

  1. Looking back at my monthly IB account statements, I find that the last time I was filled by TMBR was in early June. I use to regularly get fills from Timber Hill.

    Has anyone else noticed this or have an explanation?
  2. Timber Hill Group LLC is changed to IB Group LLC as of 2001.

    In 2002, Timber Hill accounted for approximately 57% of the IB Group's revenue, and 61% of the group's volume.

    $7 billion in assets as of 6/30/03

    $1.4 billion of Equity Capital as of 6/30/03
  3. Htrader

    Htrader Guest

    I still get executed against in nasdaq stocks with timber. happened a couple of times today. Usually, it means I'm on the wrong side. :D
  4. egusc


    I used to get TMBR fills on NYSE freaquently, everyday or two but its been a long time since i got a fill through TMBR. I just checked its was a fill for XOM on 7/15/3.

    I miss the old TMBR. anyone know why TMBR stop filling orders?

  5. def

    def Sponsor

    TMBR still does several thousand orders and millions of shares per day. Perhaps more competition from our clients base or simply that other exchanges or ECN's are showing a better NBBO for the stocks you trade.
  6. TMBR is still filling orders, just not yours. It probably means you're improving as a trader and so they programmed their system to only take the other side of your order as a last resort:D
  7. EricP


    Hmmm... Several months without a fill, when he used to be filled almost daily? Sounds like you may have a point. It would be interesting to hear IB deny (or confirm) that they use TMBR liquidity differently on a client-by-client basis (based upon prior client track record of profitability, for example).

    Def, can you comment on this?

  8. Maybe if we extend this logic here a bit, if you get a fill from TMBR, exit immediately or reverse position because most likely you're on the wrong side of the market.:p
  9. Check out the earning for Labranche(NYSE:LAB). You will know why.

  10. def

    def Sponsor



    The above is clearly stated on the web site and clearly stated in the SEC reports. If TMBR is willing to match or better the NBBO client orders will be matched and thus receive an instant fill.

    TMBR does not know nor care who is on the the other side of a trade match. They are providing the liquidity. To compare TMBR routing to an NYSE specialist is blasphemy.

    From an FAQ on our website: http://www.interactivebrokers.com/html/help/faqs/timberhillAutoExeService.html
    Can Timber Hill "peek" at my orders and trade ahead of me before my order is executed?

    No. Strict procedures prevent disclosure of your orders prior to their automatic execution by Timber Hill. Again, unlike some other specialists and market makers, with the Timber Hill Automatic Execution service, you will see your orders being executed immediately.

    The following is from the SEC reports:
    In addition to automatic execution of orders by certain exchanges and ECNs, IB's market-making affiliates, including Timber Hill LLC and Timber Hill Europe, also provide automatic execution for certain eligible IB customer orders routed through IB’s Smart Routing system, for certain Nasdaq stocks, NYSE stocks, non-U.S.-listed stocks and other securities. When an order is sent using Smart Routing, if an IB affiliate is willing to provide an execution at the best available posted price or better for that stock, IB may send the order to that affiliate for an immediate automatic execution. Orders sent to IB affiliates for automatic execution generally are eligible for price improvement (i.e., they may be executed at a price better than the best posted bid or offer). Only orders that are immediately executable are eligible to be routed by IB to an affiliate for automatic execution by that affiliate.

    Payment for Order Flow: Except for liquidity rebates that may be paid by ECNs for certain orders routed to those ECNs, IB does not generally accept payment for order flow for stock orders. ECN liquidity rebates are credited against the fees charged by the ECNs to execute other orders. IB receives order flow payments in varying amounts from U.S. option exchange specialists and/or market makers pursuant to the mandatory marketing fee programs that have been adopted by the exchanges and approved by the SEC. Receipt of payment for order flow under these exchange programs plays no role in determining where IB routes non-directed customer orders.

    Affiliate Relationships: IB's affiliate Timber Hill LLC makes markets in stocks and acts as a specialist or market maker on all U.S. option exchanges. Other IB affiliates worldwide, including Timber Hill Europe, also act as market makers on global exchanges. As noted above, for non-directed IB customer stock orders routed using IB’s Smart Routing system, if an IB affiliate is willing to provide an execution at the best available posted price or better for that stock, IB may send the order to its affiliate for an immediate automatic execution. Likewise, if an IB affiliate is a specialist or market maker on an exchange that has posted the best bid or offer for an option contract for which an IB customer has placed an order, and another exchange is also posting the same best bid or offer, IB will break the tie by sending the order to the exchange where the IB affiliate is acting as specialist or market maker.
    #10     Oct 8, 2003