Gekko, Well, this is one of the few threads here that touches close to home. I started out pretty much the same way you did. I've completely blown out twice (small amounts <$10k), been on the brink many times, only to luckily avoid margin calls and have my heavily margined position bounce back, and even though I made over $100k during the boom, I've given back more than half of it, but luckily still have enough for a trading stake. I used to hate taking money out of my trading account and racked up the ol' credit card instead. I traded from home, mainly position trading, but I never had any discipline or a trading system to trade off of. I was stubborn, held positions too long, doubled down into bad positions, always tried to catch bottoms and tops. I've read every trading book in the world, and when I talk to random people about the market, they think I'm rich because of "how much I know." You, of course, know this is not true. I said "screw it" and went back to finish school, but as chance would have it, I ended up at a prop trading firm after graduation. This is where I learned discipline. During the boom days, I would sometimes hold positions TENS of points out of the money. Short OR long. I'd just double down when it "felt" right. I'd get back to breakeven and have endured emotional stress far beyond what would have happened if I had just stopped out. I did a lot more trades daytrading, made a little money, paid a lot in commission, but most importantly, learned DISCIPLINE. Daytrading's not for me though. I don't like the fast paced action. I don't like what it does to my stomach when I'm watching pennies tick by. Now I'm back to position trading. From home. I'm still struggling, but I'm profitable and am confident that what I'm doing will work. I no longer take huge rips. If I take a .50 loss on a stock, that's pretty steep for me, my stops are usually no more than that. I trade multiple positions based on setups that I *KNOW* work well in THIS kind of market. You have to be confident in YOUR trades and YOUR setups. Just because someone else on this board made money off a type of setup, doesn't mean YOU will be able to trade it successfully. You won't have the confidence, nor the experience trading someone else's setup. I set tight stops, and I let the winners ride 2-3 points or more. I follow the trend. I no longer try to step in front of a speeding train. I don't mind if I miss a point, if I can catch the next 3. I find that trading multiple positions helps a great deal, because you are no longer subject to "lost opportunity cost" if everything else goes, but you're just long 5000 shares of one stock. When the market gets less choppy, I'll scale up my size. If it becomes worse, I'll scale down my size. No reason to put your money on the line if you have any doubts at all. I'm finding that it's hard to keep my hands off the keyboard though. I keep making money in my position trades, but I give it back a little bit here and there, and in commissions when I try to daytrade. I assume that I will always pay the high and I will always sell the low. I will always be too late or too early. Therefore, it's not advantageous for me to daytrade, but to stick to my system and my discipline and only trade the setups that I know work. It's hard to keep my hands off the keyboard though. All those pennies flying by... hard to resist.......so I just play video games. Watch porn. Chat. Surf. Anything to keep me from pushing buttons to execute trades other than my setups. It's hard to find setups sometimes though. Need to put more of my money to work if I'm going to do this style of trading. I just ordered Metastock Pro 8.0, but I'm still waiting on it... backordered...sucks. Once I'm able to scan the market for setups that I know work, then I'll be set. It's hard. Very very hard. But I know with a system, and with discipline, you CAN make money. It's that simple.
thanks everyone for the responses. anyone who's ever tried to help me, i sincerely thank you. for me, it's good to see that a lot of you guys have been in similiar situations...and got out of them ok. i guess this is just part of the process. times like these are what filters out the people who aren't totally determined. if i were to quit now, this would just be the point at which i stopped and a successful trader pressed on. so there's no way i'm quitting, although my situation does suck. it all comes down to who doesn't quit when most people would. i will be proud of myself if in 5 years i'm doing ok and i look back at my old posts like these...
what broker did you use back then? i used suretrade......they were so bad. but they were my first brokerage, so i didn't know any better. i remember i'd enter an order and it would say "pending" for sometimes more than 30 minutes. lol now i use ib and about 1 second after i click the button, i hear a "ding" and it's done..heh
I think you are a candidate for a prop trading firm. You have experience and knowledge, you just need someone who can shape it for you. Spending time in an office with succesful traders and someone who will help you could be what you need to nudge you in the right direction. Once it clicks, you'll be off to the races.
I think the key is.... DO YOU WANT TO TRADE? DO YOU REALLY WANT TO TRADE? That's what it comes down to. You could go back to get a real job, or even better, go to B-school. Even at a 2nd rate B-school, you'd still graduate making $70k a year, corporate perks, cozy job, easy life, hot chicks at work, get to boss undergrad hirees around, fun like that. No stress or worries from trading. Just a nice comfy corporate life. But once you start thinking down that road... when your mind starts to wander... and you start doubting yourself... and your determination wanes... then you're screwed. You'll never get confidence behind your trades, or the discipline required.
Datek all the way man, ISLD instant fill executions... well, except those times they got stuck...........
man is that one of the great all time myths or what! i know heaps of people (know them well) that went that route and i'm yet to hear ONE describe it in those glowing terms.. (of course, the experience wil only be what YOU make it, but i've found most of my friends routinely bitch about the long hours, frustrations with bosses/co-workers, high pressure etc.. ) gekko: keep that chin up buddy! i think that for the time being, stopping trading would be the best thing to do. my advice would be to find some part time work (there's a million things you could do) so that you can live. if you've got parents that can at least somehow bare the idea of you being a trader i'd advise moving back home (unless you already live at home, and even better if your parents actually support what you do). that way your part time wages will cover basic living. i know you're up northeast, so even with a PT job you probably won't be able to watch the markets ALL day. then just get in front of a 'puter for the time you have available and papertrade. {bracing for the flames} i don't mean papertrade like a starry-eyed newbie who just wants to go through the motions (you know, hail the winners, ignore the losers, revise what you WOULD have done etc etc) and is really chomping at the bit to go "live"; i mean papertrade intelligently, making sure that you could realistically have expected to get a fill, ONE entry and ONE exit per trade (none of this "oh but i would've done this, wouldv'e done that). take it totally seriously. it IS possible to learn this way. you've already been through the pain of losers and the ecstasy of winners, so you know how powerful the emotional side of trading is. just do that till you start being profitable. obviously if you can't do it on paper there's no way you'l be able to do it for real. then it's really up to you how long you're prepared to stick at it.
Hey, for someone that's struggling with trading and losing money, myth or not, it's still a pretty attractive alternative! (I know I've definitely thought about it once or twice in the past!)