What really happened ....11 september

Discussion in 'Politics' started by NickBarings, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. man

    man

    could that at least be partly due to the fact that this was not a
    discussion between experts but a general presentation to a
    broadly diversified audience?
     
    #701     Jan 10, 2007
  2. i will post a link later where dr jones debunk the nist miths. it's a much more detalied analysys then the video presentation; u gotta understand that he didnt have enough time to thoroughly discuss everything at lenght in the conference. and the 10second collapse was attributed to wtc7 not the towers.
     
    #702     Jan 10, 2007
  3. correct, also.
     
    #703     Jan 10, 2007
  4. the likelyhood that all three buildings collapsed on their own weight due to fire alone is pretty much laughable: chances are slim and none with slim just leaving the scene. i think we can all agree upon that.
     
    #704     Jan 10, 2007
  5. man

    man

    sure? wasn't it 6.5 or something for WTC7?
     
    #705     Jan 10, 2007
  6. yeah, less than 7sec.
     
    #706     Jan 10, 2007
  7. i'd bet all my money, house and stuff that wtc7 has been pulled.
     
    #707     Jan 10, 2007
  8. man

    man

    don't.
     
    #708     Jan 10, 2007
  9. yeah but only because u may never have a fair investigation, not because of bad odds.
     
    #709     Jan 10, 2007
  10. dpt

    dpt

    No. Not at all. These buildings were unique in design. They're not
    easily comparable to other steel frame buildings. The weight was borne in the towers both by
    the core and by the perimeter tube columns: neither group was sufficient on its
    own to support the buildings. They were about 95% empty space. If either core or exterior or
    about half of all the columns on one floor failed,
    that floor would give way. That much was known
    when they were built, I think.

    Not necessarily. It would depend on the adequacy of the insulation of
    the support members in buildings, and again the nature of loading
    and temperatures that occurred in those fires.


    That's not at all clear. In those other buildings the frame presumably
    remained well enough insulated. There were no airliner crashes in those
    buildings, apart from the one into the Empire State building, and that
    was a much smaller, slower plane in a building with a lot of exterior
    masonry which the towers lacked.

    It's widely suggested that the fuel burned probably no more than 15-20
    minutes. But the fires clearly remained burning for at least 1hr and thus
    could have kept the steel at high temperature for some time, although not
    perhaps as high as 550 C. But 550 C could have been reached initially.
    That inital jolt might just start the failure process.


    I've suggested that the timescale to failure is not easy to predict, but is a
    very complicated question, one that depends on the precise way in which the
    steel deforms under stress and temperature, and precisely how and when the
    steel was heated.

    Yes. The office materials provided, certainly, a lot more but lower
    temperature flame.

    I think it depends on what you mean by weaker here.

    It seemed pretty clear to me from about one or two days after I had seen the
    collapse, that a possible failure mechanism was simply that one story near the
    level where the planes hit had failed completely, and that the parts of the
    buildings above then fell through one story, impacting onto the parts below. I
    and some of my friends made a ballpark calculation of what would happen in
    this case, within a day or two of 9/11.

    It's not too hard to estimate what the dynamic stress would be produced on the
    lower part of the building if that ever happened, and it's very easy to see
    that it is far in excess of what the building was designed to take. It
    was designed to be strong enough to support its static weight and a bit more,
    and that's all.

    So the structure it seems to me could have been about as strong as it was
    expected (was designed) to be, and still have failed, if something like half
    of the supporting beams were cut on any one floor.

    So it was weak enough to fail in this manner. Now I frankly don't know
    whether this was understood before 9/11. But I think there are no steel frame
    buildings that possibly could survive an event in which a sufficiently large
    part of the top of the building fell onto the bottom.

    In addition, the towers were, I believe, designed to last for long enough in
    an ordinary fire that they could be evacuated. Any treatment of fire
    depended on the assumption, of course, that the insulation on the beams would
    remain intact in a fire, and that there would be no major structural damage
    pre-existing at the time of the fire.

    It is not at all clear that anything other than impact damage was considered
    in the case where an airliner struck one of the towers, and there is no
    existing documentation of what the assumptions were in this study or
    of what actuall damage the impact would have done.

    So the conditions of no more than minor structural damage and intact fire
    insulation, as it seems to me, could well have been violated in the collapse
    of towers 1 and 2, due to the impact damage caused over several stories,
    combined with the fires.



    But both 1 and 2 were struck by airliners and had fires, right?

    So these two occurrences are not so unlikely, if you can believe
    the general collapse scenario.

    And while building 7 was not struck by an airliner, it evidently did had
    extensive fires, and it evidently was struck by falling debris from building
    1. There is quite a bit of visible damage in the photos, and there is
    considerable testimony from the firefighters that suggests the damage was much
    more extensive than what is already visible.

    Thus I suspect that a similar basic failure mechanism was operating there
    ... only it must have been one of the lower floors that suffered sufficient
    structural and fire damage to give way.

    So it doesn't seem all that unlikely to me.

    Cheers! And thanks for your response.
     
    #710     Jan 10, 2007