What is the historical evidence that Jesus Christ lived and died?

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by OddTrader, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. stu


    Whoever Paul might have actually been he was not an eye witness. He was developing his missives well after the supposed life time of Jesus.
    So once again it is stuff which is not contemporaneous, first hand or verifiable nor to be frank, the product of a mentally well balanced person unless it was written as fiction. Anyone who reads Paul while maintaining a grain of common sense would immediately see why.

    If you say Paul invented Christians and or Christianity, then you do indeed confirm how Jesus is the product of Paul's Christianity not the source.

    And of course it goes without saying that because the person calling himself Paul says something in the Bible, it doesn't mean that what Paul says in the Bible is true or real, any more than what C.S.Lewis says in The Chronicles of Narnia is true or real.

    The Jesus character was the Messiah, first crafted by the writings of messianic Jewish sects separating themselves from Judaism before Paul came along. So it could be said they were Christians before Christ was later re-invented by Christians.
    if anyone holds the copyright on Jesus, it must be the early dissenting Jews.

    The term Christian was not first used by Paul but was used in mockery, not to denote divinity.

    The rest, as they say, is show business and the Bible, being much the same things.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
    #41     Apr 21, 2017
    #42     Apr 21, 2017
  3. Wallet


    What do you consider "well after" a few months, less than 3 years? Paul aka Saul of Tarsus was very much alive during the life of Jesus and active in the Sanhedrin, the ruling theological council of the Hebrews. He was used to persecute the Church, Christians after Jesus' death, and was the instigator in the stoning of Stephen. He was feared by the Apostles and early Church prior to his conversion.

    You in retrospect some 2000 years later want to decide the veracity of early Christian writings, when they have already been verified by the early Church. If the early Church would have deemed Paul a fraud his writings wouldn't be in the Bible today.
    #43     Apr 21, 2017
  4. [​IMG]Gospel of Mary, P. Oxyrhynchus L 3525.

    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
    #44     Apr 21, 2017
    #45     Apr 21, 2017
  6. I think the whole issue would be this argument cannot be easily defined as commonly expected.

    I would suggest one of the effective approaches as follows:

    Since the early believers were willing martyrs and were executed by the Romans authority, why didn't the authority just simply investigated and provided evidences in order to clarify this figure of historical Jesus had never existed.

    The evidences could be collected and supplied by both some doubtful believers (with little conviction) and non-believers, from various angles/aspects.

    Obviously, this approach would be the most direct and effective to disqualify whatever stories, any kind, about the existence of Jesus. If the authority can do that!

    If not, the authority could even possibly make up some probable evidences. AT least, writings, books, or court cases against believers, whether succeeded or failed cases.

    Just similar to what the authority did to Jesus, opened many court cases for so many very early Christian martyrs. These cases would have been recorded naturally in the historical books, stating None of them could provide evidence for the existence of a living Jesus.

    It would be almost absolutely impossible that the authority didn't know how to do that, or didn't want to do that at all.

    Unless, that knew very likely when doing so they could make the situation even much worse. Therefore, no any record was written down in any books, purposely. That could well be a planned outcome by the authority.

    That No record is the best record! Or whatever useful records such as for prosecuting early Christian martyrs had been completely eliminated intentionally.

    Purpose - Maximum uncertainty! LOL
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    #46     Apr 22, 2017
  7. Justin was once a Stoic-in-training, then trying others, and finally a convert to Christian after observing certain Stoic behaviour/virtues actually witnessed in believers. (Page 190 http://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/stoicism-in-early-christianity/335281)

    Christians were viewed as true Stoics in the Roman purview. (Page 188)

    Both Marcus and Galen (Marcus' personal physician) were very well-known Stoics.

    Galen considered Christianity like a third-rate philosophy, and Christians displaying some features like philosophers. http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/galen_on_jews_and_christians.htm

    It seemed they both didn't even challenge the fact whether Jesus was in reality a living figure. That's weird!
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    #47     Apr 22, 2017
  8. stu


    50 years well after.
    Of which period just 6 of the 13 letters of Paul can be substantiated enough to make them only potentially authentic.

    So Paul or Saul or whatever the pen name or true name was, is writing in an era when the history of a religion starts to get cobbled together. The product of which is the mythical Jesus.
    But this is at least 50 years after the totally unverified life and death of the same Jesus who was supposed to have already invented it!

    So he was alive during the suppositious time of Jesus when such tales, such exceptional events, such world changing times abounded that a God actually lived on Earth, yet nothing whatsoever is written, not a mention not a word, by Paul or anyone else in all the voluminous records and chronicles until at least 50 years later when those fantastical tales begin to be written down. Like JK Rowling would have Harry Potter developing in her head for a good many years no doubt.

    Christian writings have veracity because the church says Christian writings have veracity. A pointless and meaningless circular argument. Stuff does not get veracity that way.

    It is known how most letters attributed to Paul were forged in the name of Paul. The complete string of fake letters between Paul and Seneca for example.
    That these epistles attributed to Paul were written in the 50's CE and one or many people definitely lived to author them is obviously true.
    That does not mean the first person narrative of Paul or Saul or whoever portrayed in those letters actually existed.
    I think you could justifiably argue he has slightly more attestation than Jesus who has non at all, but that evidence is far from fulfilling the characteristics which veracity requires for establishing a person's historical authenticity.

    There are no credible accounts of a Bible Jesus and church stories including those associated to Paul are rendered, by both their lack of providence and outrageous claims, as simply that - stories.

    Things that do all the things ducks do are ducks.
    Stories that do all the things fiction does, are fiction.
    #48     Apr 22, 2017
  9. imo, Jesus was very successful in 3 points. Both are marketing related. (Traditionally a student to learn a philosophy system like Stoicism would have to go to the teacher's place (except going to very wealthy families), requiring to paying tuition fee. )

    1st, he popularised the theory of Stoicism by translating it into popular concepts that the general public in the marketplace where he personally preached can easily understand and accept.

    2nd, he also send travelling evangelists everywhere spreading his message.

    To make his messages even more popular, he also converted Stoicism, a practical philosophy, into a new religion. Incorporating some miracles including 'resurrection of the death', , parables including even heaven/ eternity/ etc.

    3rd, he was also absolutely keen in converting Judaism believers to his followers through his fulfillment of OT's many predictions/promises.


    [​IMG]A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ. The engraving reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    #49     Apr 22, 2017
  10. Perhaps we should just focus mainly on the books of Gospels.

    Paul could be a high ranking official appointed/assiged by the authority/establishment for creating a new religion nowadays called Christianity.

    One of the most unresolved mystery would be the process of how the early "Jesus-believers" hiding behind close-door to avoid authority's persecution would suddenly change their mind of fear and insecurity, became part of the "Paul's Christians" openly gathering in public places for worshiping God.

    We might never know/understand. LOL

    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    #50     Apr 22, 2017