There seems to be plenty of traders here who have "been around" a while, as well as people like Don Bright who run firms. My question is: In todays market, what does everybody feel is a "good deal" for both sides, the firm and the trader. What is a fair deal for a newbie trader who needs to learn how to make money from the experienced traders or trainers (mentors) at the frim they choose to trade. This is assuming the firm they decide to join offers intense and complete from traders who make a living trading. How much time can the firm reasonably expect a trader to take before they "get it" to be at a desk on their own. WHat should a firm charge the newbie for his trades during this learning period? what about the next stage trader? someone trading for a year or so who now knows how to not lose money, but doesn't necessarily know how to make it? Does this trader have a right to negotiate low fees? What about the next stage trader? Experienced, profitable and good volume. Most of these type traders that I know feel they can negotiate to the bone with firms. My question for this stage trader is. If most of these traders get full payout, and very low fees, how do firms make any money from these guys? How does the newbie (in todays tough market) get through the learning curve without blowing out in ticket costs. How does a firm make any money if all the traders with experience want to negotiate dirt cheap fees? If a trader can make money trading only 10,000 shares a day, how does a firm stay in business paying for office space? What is a good common ground for both to be happy? Please feel free to add any variables to the equation to come up with some suggestions. The reason for the post is I have friends that trade and friends that run groups, and it seems they are both searching for a happy medium.