Finally, a legitamate concern. Thank you for your reply, Structure is not the problem. The problem is sinful men that refuse to teach what the Bible teaches. Because they have problems with certain passages of Scripture that speaks out against what they practise - THEY ARE OUTRAGED! Instead of allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture they philosophy & theorize their way through it. They even go so far as to tear out the pages that they have trouble with or re-write Scripture in their own words.
I already dealt with that here: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67016&perpage=6&pagenumber=1 The Judas writings were not written by Judas but rather by a Judas. Just because a book is ancient does not make it the Gospel. The Book of Judas is no more the Gospel than Hamlet.
It is not about finding a Church as much as it is about finding God. If you believe the Gospel and repent of your sins and trust Christ for your eternal salvation then you have eternal life. Christ will lead you to a healthy well balanced Church that preaches the Gospel. If you are truly concerned I can help point you to a local Church in your area.
Hey, trainr's back to save us from our sinful ways! I already covered that here: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...535&perpage=20&highlight=manson&pagenumber=20 Harold
So you can point someone to a local church in their area? Good thing you are not proselytizing..... Nah, you aren't pushing your religion on others, you aren't recruiting, nope, not at all, not one bit, no way.....
So I guess your not pushing your non-belief either huh? To believe that there is no God is a "belief". What is YOUR belief? Oh, be carefull because the moment you tell me your proselytizing me. Let's stay on topic. either you have some valid questions or your really not interested? if so then just move on to another thread.
whatever, This thread is for those seeking to learn more about what Reform Christians believe. It is a sharing forum. If you have no interest please don't post here. Just move on please.
The Bible is contradictory, untrustworthy, corrupt, violent , and dishonest, packed with story after story of a mean spirited God's inhumanity to man.. Suggesting Scripture should interpret Scripture is like asking a paedophile to explain the details of child abuse . Your agenda is to label sinful those who would speak against any of the many passages of delinquent Scripture which contravene decent behavior and with which you've swamped the place. Refusing to accept the atrociousness described within the Bible is seen generally as more a propriety by less "sinful" men..
The main beef against calvinism is the belief that God predestined certain people to be "elect"; in normal words, calvinists believe that God dictated who will be saved before that person was even born. Now, that in itself is not so radical when you stop to consider how God sees time. But what is outragous is how calvinists believe that man has no free will in the matter. I.e., man does not choose to follow God, God predestines man to follow God and be saved. So they believe that it's not: "Because you have faith in God and follow his ways, God will have mercy on you and save you." Instead, they believe it's: "Because God chose you, you will serve God and be saved." If God has already elected those who are going to heaven, then why evangelize, seek to be saved, or even follow God's path? Your traditional Calvinist would proclaim, "Because God told us so!" But if God has already elected those who will be going to heaven, no amount of influence from Christians will change who is elected or not. Evangelism may be the means of how God saves the elect, but our conscience decision to not evangelize will not affect the elect. The interesting counter-argument would be when Calvinists say to non-Calvinists, "But why bother evangelizing... God already knows if a particular person will ever accept the message or not." But, as will be discussed below, this is argument is a fallacy due to the lack of comprehension of time. If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family. Basically, God has already predestined the events and no appealing to God will likely change his mind- it has already been predestined and cannot be changed. If God predestined everything, then God created sin. This is where Calvinists disagree among themselves. There are several camps; some that believe every little detail has been predestined, those who believe that God predestined all major events (including salvation), and those who believe that God only predestines those who will be saved. I suppose this point would address the first camp; If indeed God did predestined every little thing, then God did create sin. He caused man to act a specific way knowing in advance what it would lead to. If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant. If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot be faulted for his sins. If God predestined everything, then there is no such thing as randomness. (Now that's an interesting research topic..) If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be damned! This concept is called double-predestination. The logic is rather simple: if God only allows the elect to be saved, and God predestined the elect, then by default, God predestined everyone else who is not elect to be eternally condemned. Most Calvinists believe it, but there are quite a few who don't. Thomas Aquinas' view was that God does not in fact damn those whose inherent sin would normally be condemning; God simply "passes over" those who he chose to not predestine. While this view is also somewhat arrogant, (how arrogant it is for us to believe we were predestined while our neighbor might not be), it simply doesn't make sense. The bible clearly states otherwise. (never mind that little verse that says "whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life") Jesus died for everyone, not just the elect. Calvinists would point out verses such as John 10:11, Acts 20:28, and John 15:13-14, which states that Jesus died for his friends. However, Jesus promptly then states that we are his friends if we obey his commands. Clearly, though, Jesus died for everyone. Verses decribe Jesus as the savior of the world, the savior of all men, and etc. Specifically, 1 John 2:2, which states that "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." Once-saved-always-saved is a farce One only has to read the very last two verses of James (James 5:19-20) to see why. "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. " Your confused calvinists typically don't have a response to verses like these other than to falsely argue that "well, the sinner must not have ever really been born from above to begin with." It is not unfeasible for someone to be whole-heartedly devoted to God for a majority of their lifetime and then suddenly snap and turn totally against God in his heart. For example, suppose Billy Graham were to all of a sudden denounce God and start worshiping Satan. Calvinists would suggest that Billy Graham must not have ever have been saved whereas any other rational person would say that he once was a great man of faith whose heart was totally devoted to God but then suddenly snapped.