I would have thought "in the real world" not that many people really considered this at all. However, thanks for the enlightenment. Optional.....I think it's about time for one of your visual aids so we can be sure
Well so far I have had the "uninformed",and "genocide" cards played against my argument, I suppose if I keep it up I will get the "fascist", "racist" and probably the "homophobic" cards, whatever. Fascist and Racist won't stick because my ancestry is from every imaginable source, I'm not homophilic by any means though. Runningbear, I think you are a little fuzzy on the history of Palestine. Palestine was a Nazi state in WWII, their leader spent the war in Germany. When the war was over they had lost. Are you with me so far? The British ruled their area and eventually the British were driven out by the Israelis. I would call what is happening to Palestinians now payback for losing the war and helping with the genocide of Jews and subsequently screwing with the Jews every way possible ever since. No sympathy at all for them on my part, not much legitimate claim to the land really, yes they did live there once but that was then and this is now, they lost it legitimately in WWII. Palestinians are pawns kept in place by Israel's neighboring countries with the eventual goal of killing off every Israeli and making the Israeli state cease to exist. Everything else is rhetoric. They are kept in a perpetual state of despair and hopelessness in spite of the billions of dollars that flow into their arab neighbor's hands continually from oil revenues. That produces a lot of people willing to kill themselves in a suicide bomb attack. They could have a home in any country in the middle east but they are kept out on purpose. What did they ever do with Palestine? It was practically uninhabited, unused land compared to what is there now. The Islamic shrines there were not considered important by Islamic scholars but since Israel has occupied the area the Mosque on the temple mount has been raised to high importance. Islamists have to trump up whatever they can to make their case. I have some inlaws that are Palestinians who moved to the US. They will never say so, they call themselves Armenians or whatever. They hate the UN, the British, the US military, and if you want to really see them get upset, tell them you are a Jew!! I consider all middle easterners to be somewhat of a joke, 600 million people surrounding Israel, outnumbering them 200 to one, trapped in some medieval cultures, many of them desperately trying to figure out how to kill all Jews off, wringing their hands, pressuring via the UN, appealing to the Pope, appealing to the media, using their fellow man in place of a missile guidance system, definitely medieval, definitely a major problem, definitely unreasonable. Definitely only worth messing with for a time and then eventually they get so crazy you have to just do whatever it takes to manage them. Max
canyonman00, I never said anything about whether the terrorists were right or wrong. I simply said they were brave. Period. If one agrees that the definition of bravery is feeling fear yet going forward anyway, then if the terrorists felt fear and went forward with flying the planes anyway they were, therefore, brave. Let's stop beating around the bush...These terrorists, no matter how wrong they were, had some serious balls and were BRAVE. That was the entire point of my original post, to point out the absurdity of those who are so paranoid that they won't even allow such a statement. Again, if you acknowledge my definition of bravery, and also acknowledge the terrorists were capable of feeling fear, then by definition they had to be brave. All Bill Mahr did was point this out, and he was punished for it. The reason Bill mahr even mentioned that they were brave was because at the time everyone and their mom was going on tv and calling the terrorists cowards, which completely misses the boat. Underestimating our enemy only hurts us. The fact is the terrorists were very brave and did whatever it took to accomplish their goals. If we are to effectively fight terrorism we should stop the inaccurate name calling (coward etc.), and instead acknowledge that these are some brave, dedicated people we are dealing with. I think the problem is that in America "bravery" has the positive connotation of being a compliment instead of just a word. This creates some serious cognitive dissonance when Americans see deplorable people doing brave things. They cannot mentally accept that they were brave, and have to rationalize that their actions were somehow cowardly. As far as your comments on the gang member kicking down my door and shooting everyone, then not being responsible because of society etc.... Again, my comments on bravery weren't meant to imply morality. Yes, the gang member is certainly immoral for doing what he did. But was that gang member brave? If he was sane, realized there was a good possibility that he would go to jail or be put to death for his actions, and felt fear, yet shot everyone anyway, then yes, he was brave. If you don't agree, then your problem is with my definition of bravery, not my assessment of the hypothetical gangster as brave.
I'm not sure about that. I think I sort of take another viewpoint. Think about this...were kamikaze pilots (Japanese) in WWII brave? or were they brainwashed? Are suicide bombers brave or brainwashed? The Japanese pilots had been inculcated into believing that their Emperor was a God and they were on earth to serve him. They climbed on that seat, not thinking...."This is scary...but I'm going to go ahead and do it!" Rather they were totally brainwashed from a young age. They went through an education system that reinforced the sacrifice of one for his Emperor and his country as well as put the Emperor above mortal beings. The same can be said of the terrorists who rammed the airplanes into the WTC on Sept 11 2001. The cleaning lady of their hotel room said that the drains of their shower and bathroom were clogged from massive amounts of hair. They had shaved their body hair....to be pure as they entered Paradise. They really believed that they were going there. With 72 virgins and the whole ball of wax. So actually....they were brainwashed and very cowardly (because they killed themselves rather than live and build a better world). But that's just my opinion, of course.
Don't take this the wrong way....but you guys are whoosies! "Oh no, 1 billion muslims are going to get us" "we are going to be bombed in malls" Could you guys do me a favor? GROW A DICK!!!! Be a man and quit worrying like a damsel in distress...You guys make me sick my stomach.... Im tired of hearing this scared ass pussy crap...your fellow Americans got killed for no reason. Religious fundamentalist from countries that are STILL not as developed at Ancient ROME was!!! go to Canada you cowardly girls and grow flowers and sing Kumbaya by fire light.... Now please don't take this personally, these are just some observations i have from reading your posts.....and even if you do take it personally, tough! What are you going to do about it? I could probably just punch your mom in the mouth and you will cower in the corner and beg "please not me next"!
...oh brother what's next...."THE SNIPER WAS ACTUALLY BRAVE TO KEEP FIRING EVEN THOUGHT HE KNEW THERE WAS INTENSE POLICE PRESSURE" THE columbine HIGH KIDS WERE SO BRAVE USING AUTOMATIC WEAPONS TO KILL INNOCENTS' What the hell happened to everybody? By the way corso, on one of the planes, the terrorist hog tied a stewardess and slit her throat......right up there with Braveheart! Just when i think some of thee posts can't get any worse, somebody proves me wrong!
That's the way I see it. Not a bit of bravery involved at all. Brainwashing and wishfulness. And selfish wishfulness at that. These are not brave "soldiers" in the conventional sense. These are fanatics that have been sold a bill of goods by those that are waging a war of terror with absolutely no shred of "bravery" at all. Hiding in caves, not even taking responsibility in a direct way. Where is the "bravery" of the leadership? Bill Maher made a point, but was wrong. I like Bill. I like that he exploits his freedom of speech. And he would be the very first to say that his beliefs in this particular freedom is what his life is really about. But on this particular matter he just used his freedom in an unfortunate statement. Bottom line....don't confuse "bravery" with, what Babak called "brainwashing". There are other words that can be used, but it all adds up to the same thing. The exploitation of fools by cowards. Peace, rs7
How did they find that out? I mean the planes either rammed into the ground or into buildings, so I can't imagine their was much evidence left.
Even worse is this strange need of many to explain cowardace as championing a cause. Somehow because the terrorists can't punch the face and be ready for battle, they are excused and given full punch credit for just a hit anywhere. They strike you somewhere around the shin and then you're blamed for being too tall. Why don't they dig in right outside the gates of the military base and call out the troops. There's no one stopping them. What would be braver in the eyes of their followers than a single machine gun nest taking on a whole armored division? War with and against the warriors! What a concept. It would be a great way to show that they're ready to take on the American enemy forces. Sort of like a training exercise with live ammo and casualties if you will. In the face of terrible danger, they would be heros. Dead, but heros. And then I think the necessary statements would have all been clearly made by all the parties. And everyone could then govern themselves accordingly.