Want opinion on collective2

Discussion in 'Strategy Development' started by sysdev1, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. sysdev1


    Have anyone listed a system with them? Have you profited from that?

    Have anyone subscribed to a system ? Have you profited from that?

    I currently have following reservations. Some systems look unrealistic. For example, a system trades not so liquid instruments, makes 300 trades in a year and achieves 100% return. That amounts to an average profit of 0.3% per trade. Obviously in real trading, after accounting for slippage commissions etc that 0.3% profit will become -0.5%, and +100% return fill become -150% loss.

    Which means credibility for systems on C2 is limited, and the track record for the system listed there can't be used for attracting future investors.

    Another issue is that they conceal any subscriber statistics. I would gladly pay my listing fee, I only I had an answer to a simple question: if my system ranks among 5% top systems, what subscription income should I expect? Will that income exceed my listing fee (which is $196/year) ?
  2. Based on what I have seen from opinions and other things:

    the 10,000+ systems is really more like a couple hundred currently active systems

    Probably all but a couple do not work (do not ask about "the 2, please?")

    You may get some subscription revenue as a vendor, but unless you are pretty profitable with good statistics, and have been around at least a few months, you will likely be disappointed
  3. They also force you to leave a system up even after you know the discretionary aspect won't work in a particular environment. Say, if there is a regime change and that particular strategy no longer works in a particular Market, so you have all these abandoned strategies that they want to keep up, its just another way the vendor can make money for each one you put up.
  4. sysdev1


    In that case I'd trade another strategy under the old system name. I guess in that game you should devise new systems all the time because rules change, edges get widely known and disappear etc.

    So if I display a system that exceeds certain threshold for sharp ratio, drawdowns, liquidity etc - what do you think, will I be able to earn $10000 with it? Otherwise it's not worth an effort.
  5. sysdev1


    This forum is true gold mine of useful info .. but you should sift through 99% of raw ore (meaningless garbage) to extract it.

    Found about timertrac, covestor and other similar sites. Covestor requires you to actually have a trading account. Also a guy stars there with 300,000% returns (!!!) who is "shorting penny stocks". Tell me, how can you short penny stocks? My broker won't allow to short anything under $5. Doesn't add credibility for the site.
  6. 15rms


    The difficulties with C2 are numerous. Most importantly the owner is arrogant and not helpful. Does not seem to understand he needs people to be profitable.

    After that the site allows too much fraud. It is possible to sign in under as many aliases as you want. There are people there that use many. The most visible and vocal person in the forums was allowed to conceal his 76% ignore rating he so rightly deserved. The same gentleman has over 5 aliases that have been discovered. Starts multiple failed trading signals only to go to another alias and start anew. All the while using the forums to bash and belittle other vendors that are far more successful than him.

    The signals are for the most part are put out by vendors that have little knowledge our know how of what they are doing. When looking at a signal there is no telling the experience or capabilities of the vendor.

    I would suggest anybody interested in C2 to take a look at the reviews of the signals. It is extremely rare to find anybody that actually C2 and makes money. Looking at the reviews that are on the front page today is a good example, 3 out of 4 of them are bad. The good review starts out with “I have only been subscribed to this system for a couple of weeks”.

    After observing C2 for some time now it is clear the site blows out far more accounts than it makes money for. Most smart traders observe the site and go on their way. The other traders, vendors or vendor clients that have been there for some time are just chasing their own tail.

    It is not a question of if C2 will lose your money it is a question of when.
  7. gaj


    says more about your broker. probably clears through penson, who generally won't allow shorting under $5 stocks (note GENERALLY).

    also, people with big % gainers usually do it in stocks/setups which don't allow many people to follow the same strategy with any size.

    one salesman had a video where he touted selling 5000 shares, i think ,when a stock had a breakdown. only problem? you couldn't SELL 5000 at that price, or even within 10c of it, and on a $8 stock, that's a problem.
  8. sysdev1


    Bingo ! :D
  9. oraclewizard77

    oraclewizard77 Moderator

    The problem is you will get some systems out of pure luck there by luck will go up for 4 to 6 months and may be tuned to the market during that time period.

    However, the market changes, the trader / vendor has no real idea of risk management, and lets a single trade or a series of trades wipe out all the profit and most of the subscribers accounts, since subscribers are probably not going to join at the start of the system only after it has been doing well for awhile, so the big hit may only take the vendor down 30 - 40%, but the subscribers probably get wiped out.

    i previously made some money with a system there once, but I look now especially after someone hacked their website and stole credit card information, that I no longer see high number of views for some systems that may be fine to trade. This leads me to think their popularity is declining. Also, when you have tons of subscribers who have had bad experiences by losing money with C2, its hard to attract new people there even if you were to put out another good system since the audience that you are trying to reach already lost their money. Plus yes, you do have a bunch of bogus systems that make say 4 cents profit on a trade that would be a loser if you auto traded it since you would not get the same fills and subscriber fees and commissions would be a net negative.

    Therefore, I think its better to trade on your own, or start your own website to promote your trading so that you don't have to compete against random systems that may have better stats than yours until they implode.
  10. sysdev1


    Good point, thanks.

    I think what they should have done, is to let subscribers check systems on their own terms. For example, if I only allow trades in listed securities above $20, and average volume above 1mln shares, and my slippage estimate is, say, 5 cents, or 0.5% of trade, and no more than 20% of capital invested in each single stock, etc - what would the system do for me?

    May be I should start collective3 )
    #10     Apr 2, 2010