Yes, I did. As I already said, they do not contain any evidence to support your claim. If you disagree, feel free to argue your case. I would welcome an actual discussion of the merits of your genocide theory. Martin
i find it very odd this would bring you so much worry. if things were reversed and i was questioning the numbers of the Jewish Holocaust i would already have suffered a great wrath on ET. i am very glad you have not slipped up like a_person and spoke of the real holocaust. she showed her racism to an extreme degree. we are all equals here... all innocent life is sacred and should be respected. what number of dead Christians will you consider accurate? or is it the use of the word genocide that has you so agitated?
Well if you really believe what your wrote - then you just lost your argument about whether we are a Christian Nation.... -------------- I understand all these arguments are shaded. But, you seem to say we must believe Hitlers public statements, but not the ones published by his inner circle. If you want a non Christian source try wikipedia. It funny how you have a knee jerk reaction to anything Christian. Even if the Christian is just quoting others. QUOTE]Quote from stu: 1. No doubt there are. Dozens of xian apologist sites which show Hitler's 'private' comments. But I gave Hitler's PUBLIC comments and ones which he made out loud himself. Ones that are not second hand. Ones not tampered with for reasons of a Catholic Church trying to absolve or disconnect itself from its own actions or the actions of its members, such as Hitler. The Catholic Church could have at least easily taken a small step towards disassociating itself by excommunicating Hitler. It did not. 2. There's no perhaps about it. The Inquisition was the judgment of the Christian Catholic Church. That the monarchy hopped on a bandwagon the Church had built is somewhat irrelevant. Christianity is an ideology, It drove the Inquisition and the Crusades and it can be clearly seen how Christianity by the Catholic Church, directly and indirectly drove and supported Hitler and his ideologies in turn. The point being, the ideology of Communism drove Stalin and the ideology of Christianity drove the Inquisition, drove and gave if nothing else, political succor to Hitler. Atheism, not being an ideology, is not a driving force the way theism is. [/QUOTE]
That's pretty much the problem with virtually all religions, it seems, those who practice a religion, and particularly those who make their living from it, at best, deflect indelicate questioning, and at worst, hurl insults at those with the temerity to "trash talk" their religion -- This, of course, is the very essence of dogma. The practice of cutting out tongues seems to have been replaced with "STFU." No wonder religious superstition continues to snare the gullible, the religious have consciously chosen to shut their minds to any contrary thought.
Though i'm an atheist, i had always thought that the Romans killed the mythical "Jesus." (Although they did not Really kill him, as we know, because he later had dinner with his buddies.) So, apparently the Romans were Jewish also. How interesting! Well at least they were killing a fellow Jew from the neighborhood and not randomly killing people they didn't even know.
That's because the Jewish Holocaust actually happened. If you really wish to deny that the Holocaust occurred, I will be more than happy to point you to overwhelming scholarly evidence. If you think there was a genocide of 40-60 million Christians in Russia, why can't you post any evidence to support your view? Martin
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/GENOCIDE.ENCY.HTM Taking both social definitions into account, governments have murdered probably around 174 million people during the 20th Century. Most of this killing, perhaps around 110 million people, is due to communist governments, especially the USSR under Lenin and Stalin and their successors (62 million murdered), and China under Mao Tse-tung (35 million). Some other totalitarian or authoritarian governments are also largely responsible for this toll, particularly Hitler's Germany (21 million murdered) and Chiang Kai-chek's Nationalist government of China (about 10 million). Other governments that have murdered lesser millions include Khmer Rouge Cambodia, Japan, North Korea, Mexico, Pakistan, Poland, Russia, Turkey, Vietnam, and Tito's Yugoslavia.
TO THE VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM, LEST WE FORGET By Jeff Jacoby The Boston Globe December 7, 1995 In 1993, President Clinton signed Public Law 103-199, authorizing a memorial in Washington to those who died in the ``unprecedented imperial Communist holocaust'' that began in 1917. It is a memorial long overdue. And it is well-suited to Washington, the capital of the Free World and the headquarters of what President Kennedy called the ``long twilight struggle'' against the totalitarians of the Left. When completed, the Victims of Communism Memorial will include a museum documenting the crimes committed by the disciples of Marx and Lenin; original artifacts from the bitter night of Communist brutality (a piece of the Berlin Wall, a cell from the ``Hanoi Hilton''); and a database preserving the names of those wiped out in history's greatest slaughter. Or at least as many of those names as can be identified. It is impossible that we shall ever know them all. Every one of the hundreds of thousands of Cossacks butchered on Lenin's orders in 1919? Every Miskito Indian killed in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas? Every Chinese peasant, all 2 million-plus of them, obliterated during Mao Zedong's ``land reform'' in the early 1950s? Impossible. For pure murderous evil, there has never been a force to compare with Communism. The Nazis didn't come close. The Holocaust was uniquely malignant - never before or since did one people construct a vast industry of death for the sole purpose of rounding up and destroying every single member of another people. But the Nazis exterminated 11 million innocents; the Communist death toll surpasses 100 million. Nazi power lasted from 1933 to 1945. The Communist nightmare began in November 1917, and continues to this day. Savagery has always been a hallmark of Communism. It is an ideology that requires the destruction of human beings. ``We have never rejected terror in principle,'' wrote Lenin in 1901, ``nor can we do so.'' Half a century later, even as he denounced the extremes to which his predecessors went, Nikita Khrushchev vowed that the terror so esteemed by Lenin would go on. ``The questioning of Stalin's terror,'' he cautioned the Twentieth Party Congress in 1956, ``may lead to the questioning of terror in general. But Bolshevism believes in the use of terror.'' Not long afterward, Khrushchev sent 3,000 Soviet tanks to crush the Hungarian freedom fighters. Communism equals murder. Everywhere. Always. In Ukraine, for example, where 7 million people were starved to death on the Kremlin's orders. ``If you go now to the Ukraine or the North Caucuses,'' wrote British journalist Malcolm Muggeridge in 1933, ``exceedingly beautiful countries and formerly amongst the most fertile in the world, you will find them like a desert; . . . no livestock or horses; villages deserted; peasants famished, often their bodies swollen, unutterably wretched.'' Farmers who took grain or vegetables from their own land were shot. Dead bodies littered the streets of Kharkov, the capital. ``It was,'' an eyewitness later recalled, ``as if the Black Death had passed through.'' Communism equaled murder in Ethiopia, where Mengistu Haile Mariam became dictator in 1977 and embarked on what he called his ``Red Terror.'' Tens of thousands were massacred, including the graduating seniors of almost every high school in Addis Ababa. Communism equaled murder in North Vietnam as far back as 1945, when Ho Chi Minh resolved to annihilate his Nationalist rivals. ``It was appalling,'' recorded the historian Lucien Bodard. ``Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of men had been liquidated . . .. The intention was that horror and dread should extinguish the last trace of respect for them among the masses: Their execution had to be both shameful and terrifying. That was the reason for the mass executions of hundreds at once, the fields of prisoners buried alive, the harrows dragged over men buried up to the neck.'' Communism equaled murder in Tibet, where Mao's campaign to extirpate Buddhist culture turned 1.2 million Tibetans into corpses. It equaled murder in gentle Cambodia, where the bloodlust of the Khmer Rouge vaporized one-third of the nation in less than four years. It equaled murder in Cuba, in East Germany, in Afghanistan. From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic - murder. In the Gulag and the laogai - murder. At Tienanmen Square - murder. In the Korean War and the Vietnam War, in the forest of Katyn and the dungeons of the Lubyanka - murder. One hundred million victims of Communism. And those are only the victims who were slain. It doesn't include those who were maimed or driven mad. Those whose lives went dark when a loved one was butchered. Those who spun out their years in potato queues, in vodka stupors, in daily fear. It doesn't include those who wasted 30 years as slaves in Siberia. The boat people who flung themselves into the South China Sea. The stifled poets, the gagged priests, the tormented refuseniks, the exiled democrats. Rarely do we think of them, or of the hundred million. We forget how pathologically evil Communism has been, or why we poured so much blood and treasure into fighting the Cold War. It is to correct that amnesia that the Victims of Communism Memorial will be built. For information, contact: VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM MEMORIAL FOUNDATION P.O. Box 1997 Washington, DC 20013 202-785-0266 202-785-0261 (fax) http://www.physics.ncat.edu/~michael/vses/eth4000/victim.html
Ratboy, you're making my point for me. Neither of those sources even mention the word Christian or Christianity. Nobody ever denied that the Communists killed a lot of people, or that a lot of them happened to be Christian. The question is whether their victims were killed because they were Christian. And the answer, by your own sources, is no. Genocide is defined as the attempt to physically exterminate an entire racial, religious, or ethnic group. The Bolsheviks never had the motive to kill all the Christians in Russia. So for the umpteenth time, can you show any evidence for your claim of a genocide targeted at Christians that killed 40-60 million people? Martin
Quote from Jem Well if you really believe what your wrote - then you just lost your argument about whether we are a Christian Nation.... You will have to expand some on that. What I wrote had no connection to what is or is not a christian nation. -------------- Quote from Jem I understand all these arguments are shaded. But, you seem to say we must believe Hitlers public statements, but not the ones published by his inner circle. No.You are not following jem. It is not a question of believing one or the other. I am simply putting forward some facts, as they stand, and if you want to believe they are not what they are, then that's your problem really. Hitler was raised Catholic. He made public in his own words, confirmation of his religious beliefs. "...I am fighting for the Lord's work." ....That is not an anti Christian message which you say other people say Hitler thought. You are saying he was "anti church and christian." because your argument is, " his adivsers stated that he thought Christianity was a symbol of decay and that he hated the Catholic Churches leaders." That is not what Hitler stated himself in public. Nor is it justifiable argument to have "his advisors" or "inner circle" decide what Hitler thought - for him. Especially when he clearly expressed his own thoughts, himself, in public. But ok, let's take the rather specious position that others knew better than Hitler what Hitler thought. He was after all a complete bastard. Nevertheless it does not remove the fact that he was driven by the Christian ideology, he confirmed his Catholicism and believed he was doing all for the Glory of God. If you want a non Christian source try wikipedia. It funny how you have a knee jerk reaction to anything Christian. Even if the Christian is just quoting others. What is funny is how you jump up so fast to defend the Catholic Christian Church, and in doing so try to substantially re write history against the facts. The point is, using the ideology of Christianity , the Christian Roman Catholic Church drove both the Crusades and the Inquisition. The ideology of Christianity also drove Hitler to fight "for the Lord's work". Catholicism cannot and did not excuse itself from those practices any more than it does or would from the Christian ideology. But one would have thought it could have learned through two atrocities it owned, enough at least to disconnect itself from the third. But when you believe you are the only true type of theist , that i word just keeps on getting in the way.