Hi daniel The thing is, if you'll go back and read my other posts, if you know this "something" directly you wouldn't be asking for "proof". What would count as "proof" to you? You wouldn't need to "define" it and would realize the need for it directly. It's not a matter of "accepting that you hold a positive belief" either. It's not a matter of believing in something but knowing it directly. How do you "know" if a rose is beautiful? Do you need to define beauty first to know? And if someone said to you, "This rose is beautiful" would you say to them, "How do you know? Define beauty."? Would you need to dissect it and put it under a microscope? No. You just know. As for another quote along these lines: "No matter what the world thinks about religious experience, the one who has it possesses a great treasure, a thing that has become for him a source of life, meaning and beauty, and that has given a new splendor to the world and to mankind. He has pistis [faith] and peace. Where is the criterion by which you could say that such a life is not legitimate, and that such an experience is not valid, and that such a pistis is mere illusion? Is there, as a matter of fact, any better truth about the ultimate nature of things than the one that helps you to live?... And if such experience helps to make life healthier, more beautiful, more complete and more satisfactory to yourself and to those you love, you may safely say: âThis was the grace of God.â - Carl Jung Here's an article I just found on the distinctions between belief, faith, and knowing directly. I don't necessarily agree with every single point but it does give a decent overview of what I'm getting at. http://www.omegastar.org/Ind/Pure/Belief_Faith_and_Knowing.html The thing is, there's a difference between belief, faith, and knowing directly. Belief exists in the realm of thought and reason and this activity must be quiet for an awareness and realization of something of a higher order to arise.
hi bce, what would count as proof? lol. theists, as a group, must be the most unimaginative lot out there! i always get this question put to me. well, depending on what powers you claim your god has, there are practically countless possible ways such a god could prove he exists. now, if you're god is one of the "essence of nature" types, and doesn't real demand to be worshipped, doesn't take a personal interest in the affairs of man, well, i suppose it/he/she wouldn't really feel inclined to go around proving itself. i don't think the rose analogy really holds. we're not discussing whether god is beautiful, or ugly, or angry, or loving, or fat, skinny, strong, weak etc we're discussing his existence, and existence isn't really a quality of an object (check your Kant, i think); and if it is, it's not a subjective quality. we know the rose exists, but we, or at least i, don't know if god does. i read that article you posted, but i disagree with it from the very start and can't really be bothered replying in detail. knowing is just a more certain form of belief; more certain than opinion, for example. we may claim to 'know' something, and logically it may be an absolute certainty (like 1+1=2, for eg), but from the way that 'knowledge' is encoded in our brain, it's just another belief (but, again, one we are very, very, certain about). what determines how certain we feel about a belief? either logical proof or convincing evidence. faith, the way i understand it, is certainly different in that it is a very certain belief (for most) but it is not one formed on the basis of the evidence; which, to me, makes it quite irrational. then again, i'll readily admit that having faith in something, like your god, for example, is certainly something that we can draw a great deal of strength from and add meaning to our lives. i think that's quite an important aspect of faith. i'd be even willing to consider that spirituality and religious experience based on this alone. anyway, good luck with it. if it serves you well, i guess that's the main thing. as long as we don't try and shove our beliefs down each others' throats we all get along just fine. i really don't claim to know what's going on; i simply disbelieve in any gods because i think that the balance of probabilities favors there not being any, but i could be wrong.
Hi daniel Just stopped in for a second. Doesn't seem like you're understanding what it is I'm getting at and I don't have time to get into it right this second but we can talk more. Anyway, hope you're enjoying your weekend and have a good week trading.
I don't bother I just live ! What I bother about is Nazism because it will have concrete consequences on earth not on Heaven. As for Heaven I will know enough soon when I will die I don't mean that those kind of questions have no importance. I mean there are things more important. Thinking to these questions is somehow just a way to escape reality for some people. And some of them will enter sects to look for answers. I once look to have a discussion with a raelien. The reason is I have been approached in my life by many people trying to invite me in sects. I think it is because I am open minded enough to listen to their theories and they think that it is the sign I will adhere to them. No I just listen to them because I am curious. So for curiosities I went to a religious forum on Internet. Many people were attacking the raeliens. If I attacked them also sure It wouldn't be possible to speak with them. So I was as kind as possible with them and ask why they become raellians. One among them seems more reasonable to me than others so I focused on him. He was a software ingeneer in artificial intelligence. I asked him the why question and he answered that it is because he has read many science fiction and paranormal books as a child and he decided to enter the sect after 15 years of asking himself. Gee 15 years ?! I answered well when I was a child I also read many science fictions and paranormal books but I don't see any reason to enter a sect either. Then I asked him many more questions and also a vicious one: "don't you think that Rael is not honest and does this just for money and that he will go away one day with it " he said yes but that if he does this he would be killed by the members of the sect . Then as usual when I talk with a sect member they try to invite me. I declined. I think you must sometimes put a barrier protection against yourself. I know that I am strong but perhaps not strong enough to subtil mental manipulations that I wouldn't see. So I think that one must keep asking questions but if there is no answer coming from inner self delay the questions to another life
Capra has two other phenomenal books; The Web of Life and The Turning Point... Also I am pretty sure he just released another a few months back, although I have not read it yet... PEACE, Commisso
Genesis states God granted mankind dominion over all other animals... Now if this is true and God is the Author/Controler of all, then what if he creates another form of life that has dominion over us??? What if the KJMDHTI from the planet Melmac get granted dominion and start slaughtering, packaging and then sticking us in the MicroWave??? All I know is that if I see my brother being roasted on a pick, then I will be reasonably sure that my subconscious will be throwing images of the Fuddruckers Burger I ate last week into my head... I'm just sayin...