i am going to watch american idol, so this will be short. go back and look what i said in my previous post. i edited it at the bottom and said i don't really disagree with you. i'll sum up what i think about the plane crash example... if you took a large number of plane crashes, there would inevitably be some survivors. for whatever reason, whatever killed everyone else did not happen to kill them. i have nothing to suggest their was a higher meaning to it. if say, everyone else died because of fire, fire just did not happen to be where they sat on the plane because of circumstance. you seem to suggest there is more to it WITHOUT ANYTHING TO PROVE THAT IDEA. again, the atheists always have it right. i can totally admit there could be more to it like you suggest, however, i can also say maybe there isn't. i accept that i do not know and leave it at that. I DO NOT jump to a conclusion that there IS more to it with NO PROOF!!!!!
So since you cannot say with certainty one way or another, you call it luck? So anything that happens, in which you cannot reach proof via your standards of proof, is deemed the result of luck? Is that right? I am not suggesting that I can proove to you that there is anything more, but certainly you are open to the possibility that there is more than meets the eye, don't you think? Or do you have evidence to the contrary? If you choose to use different methods of perception, as some have suggest throughout history, perhaps you would see more. However, it is your right to set your own standards for yourself. We both know that they are only your standards, not necessarily the right standards for others.
lmao, horse! whenever i DO claim to know everything, i'm just trying to get the other side going. i ALWAYS can accept i do not know. CAN YOU DO THE SAME?????
hard to relate, seeing as how i don't know everything and never claimed to.... i also have this quirky habit of actually meaning what i say, as opposed to "just trying to get the other side going"...
Gordon, Atheists are just as foolish as theists. How can you propose to "know" that there is no "god" anymore or less than a theist can "know" that there *is* a god? The only sensible religion in this world is that of an agnostic.
that is not my stance. i don't say that there isn't. however, that doesn't mean i believe there is either. i just keep an open mind and only believe in something that can be backed up by science. i think that is the most reasonable way a human can be. also, how do things operate here on earth? do we operate by making claims and proving them to be true? or do we make any claim we want and say, "ok now prove me wrong!" religion is the only exception. it should be obvious to you it's a bunch of bs. p.s. i have no problem with the term "god." it depends on what the meaning is. if you say god is what is unknowable, or the universe, i won't complain. if you say god is jesus christ, then i have major problems with it!
Gordon, Do you understand that you are setting up your own terms of knowledge, i.e. scientific explanation based on current instruments? What if I don't agree with your terms? Does that make you right, or me wrong? Or is it just the way that you choose to define your reality via science, and I choose a different metholodology that you don't accpet as valid according to your science? That is the limit you have chosen, not the limit of men. The proof of that is that not everyone sees things the same way, that some choice is involved in what to accept or reject, and by what standards. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio Gecko, than are dreamt of in your philosophy, or seen with a microscope."
777, if you want to throw out science and instead use some other method of judging things, by all means go ahead. but you must keep in mind it's going to sound absurd to anyone who operates logically. you're basically saying, "well fine, you can believe in things that are observable, but i choose not to." fine, that's your choice, but it certainly doesn't make any sense to me! also, let me ask you, if that's how you operate...by being open to ideas not observable, what made you decide on your current beliefs? why not believe something else? how can you POSSIBLY decide on one religion?!?! it could probably be argued that you can't, really. at least not in a way that would make any sense! i already know the answer to the question i just asked and i already know you won't admit it. you believe what you believe now BECAUSE YOU WERE TOLD TO. now, my disclaimer is that i don't know you all that well. i admit i don't know your personal life and how you were raised. i'm just guessing... i can only speak of the many religious people i know of and how they were raised. i can even speak for myself because my grandmother (mother's side) was religious and she made me go to church every sunday for a few years at an early age. my father is not religious and eventually said i did not have to go. he is very into science like i am. i will be FOREVER THANKFUL TO MY FATHER FOR RAISING ME WITH AN OPEN MIND. god bless him for that! anyway, my point is.....it's no secret how religion operates. send the kids to church at an early age....hell, aren't baptisms almost immediately?! they don't waste any time! so basically, brainwash the kid so when he gets older, it's WHO HE IS. only some can break away from it. most don't, however, and they have kids and repeat the same process--it's been going on for centuries! btw, if you don't believe, you go to a bad place called hell! so you better believe (perfect scam)! now i know there are a few who aren't raised religious and then turn to it on their own...that's their free choice to do so. anyways, i will end with this. i think children should not be raised being told anything that can't be proven. a child should be raised with an open mind, and as they get older THEY CAN CHOOSE to believe what makes sense to them. if they want to become a christian or whatever, so be it. but please, let it be done on their own. religion really is brainwashing and no one here will ever convince me otherwise! and i know you all won't admit it because i'd be pissed too if it happened to me! and also, since you're brainwashed, you don't really recognize it as brainwashing, anyway!!!! my view of you christians is EXACTLY your view of the muslim suicide bombers that think they're getting 72 virgins! you think they're dreaming, right?!? well that's EXACTLY how i view your beliefs! i can see they're equal because i have not been brainwashed with any set of religious beliefs!
Gordon, You are welcome to own your opinions on what is right for me, or others, but they are your opinions only, right? Not empirical fact, right? You have no proof to offer in your brainwashing comments, any more than I could prove with faith that you are going to hell. I was never told what to believe. My parents told me to make up my own mind, find my own way in life. They provided no certain answers, no magic formula, just an acceptance that whatever I found was mine and mine alone to accept or reject. The practice of faith sounds absurd only to those who have not practiced it properly. As children, as a little boy, the thought of kissing a girl was, how shall we say, gross!!! Then things changed, and experiences changed. What was once though absurd, became attractive. The bottom line is that faith is not illogical, it is just faith. Some have it, some don't, I can't provide an explanation that would suit your criteria of proof, not trying to. William F. Buckley is a devout Christian. Just try to have a winning logical argument with him sometime.