What if the creator exists outside of the concept of "time" and actually created time with this reality? Then, asking what he was doing for so long before the universe came around would be equivelent to standing dead-center on the North Pole and trying to walk north. If you are precisely at that point, no matter which way you begin walking, it will be south. You could apply that concept to other logic areas that we cannot comprehend. It would seem absurd that any direction we walk is headed towards the same direction -- south. Likewise, trying to figure out "how long time has been around" would be impossible since the measure of the ruler or tape-measure is that thing itself -- there is no need for comparison since that is the very measurement you are using. You can't ask, "what happened 2 seconds before it all began" because it would be like trying to walk north from the North Pole.
Aphie, I understand that. But O777 said, "the Creator existed". Please define term 'to exist'. Existence requires some sort of motion... some dualism - there must be at least two different 'things' in order to see that one of them exists (at least from our point of view). Yes, we're all limited to our subjective perspective.
Again the problem comes of attempting to define that which is beyond the boundaries of time, space, causality, change, and action. When you say: "Existence requires....." you are requiring that something beyond the duality of time and space fit your understanding and definition. "God must conform to my reality" the scientists scream just like a child screams that the parent doesn't understand and what the parent is doing isn't fair. Imagine our world of duality. Imagine a world of pure singularity---which is impossible for the human mind. Just try to imagine something for which there is no opposite. Then imagine a supreme being, God, who has both of these worlds in the palm of his hand. You fail to imagine beyond a limit, hence the term "beyond imagination." What exists beyond imagination? Who knows, until they travel there. Man, of limited mind and imagination, continues to require God to fit within the box of his limited understanding. Can you be everywhere at one time? Can you know everything in the universe at all points in time? Yet God has been described as omniscient, and omnipresent. Sound quite illogical, doesn't it? Yes, to the limits of logic, God does sound illogical. Logic is limited, causal, relative.....yet people try to use logic to describe a being that is beyond cause, limit and relativity.
well, i'm sure you'll agree that we still don't fully understand the brain. so for me to guess where consciousness originates from would just be speculation on my part. however, i would still say that consciousness is somehow something that the brain creates. since i don't fully understand how a brain functions, i can't say for sure at what point a brain creates consciousness. i also can't say if all brains allow consciousness, or if only advanced brains do. my bet would be that all brains allow for some degree of consciousness. HOWEVER, we do know parts of the brain control different functions. for example, i believe the brain stem controls basic life functions like breathing. so i guess if an animal only has a brain stem, it doesn't mean they are conscious. so like i said, it's probably that the more advanced the brain is, the more it is capable of doing, the more it is aware of. makes sense to me. plants do not have any type of brain and therefore, imo, are not conscious. although made of living parts, the whole unit has no brain. so imo, a plant has the same consciousness as a rock, although it does have living parts.
Stu, Exactly, well said that man. The most simple and straightforward is usually best. Perhaps expressible in a simple equation e - e = n. Can there be a simple concept of Nothing.? Everything which we know or don't know of - Everything we know of or don't know of = Nothing. Sounds more than feasible. AS such a state of Nothing would be before anything , you could even say "Nothing comes before God". This state will be unstable and vulnerable to quantum singularity effect. Bang.... or should I say Big Bang. The state of Nothing might be expressed as a black hole phenomenon, which are now thought to be present in the center of all galaxies, including our own. Black holes feed off galaxies. The laws of physics become suspended within. They are the ' state of Nothing ' then Bang..... From there everything that is made , matter /life / consciousness is the rearrangement or reformation or coalescence of chemicals neutrons atoms. They's sperm efficient .....('scuse me.... just felt a little nauseous for a moment) ...must be mixed with the egg material otherwise it isn't life. All the constituent chemicals which made up his sperm efficient (no good ....I am going to puke this time.....back now).....is made from existing material. Material = Life.There need be no higher plane other than that which a limited human condition may seek because of incomplete knowledge. God filling the gaps, as has been said. The science is astounding the images derived from new telescopics are awesome. Beats the hell out of this "am I really conscious" crap. You guys sit around and speculate on this as if it was something new. It is nihilistic Buddhism! OLD WINE IN A NEW BOTTLE! You guys are Buddhists and you do not even know it. The taste of quitting the search for that aspect of experience which is not gross or subtle matter is the taste of PUKE. You might as well start getting used to it. Stu, the sperm efficient example was used to make a point in YOUR example of the so-called creation of life in a human body. Don't go all petty on me and twist the point. The sperm is also only a body of the efficient/life on another level. I already admitted to being petty. I guess it is now your turn. How about this one for a speculative theory. Black holes are the pores of MahaVishnu. As He exhales the efficient (spiritual/life energy) enters in to the material causal energy( gross and subtle matter) and it causes the growth(expansion, for you atheists) of a universe with all its attributes. When He inhales, the life energy is removed and, the Universe implodes back in to YOUR nothing.(Death, for you atheists) Perhaps this speculation was made thousands of years ago without your fancy schmancy AWESOME telescopes. Educate yourselves above the level of monkeys. Monkeys have concluded that nothing matters accept the gratification of their senses. I have noticed some similarities in some âpurpose of life theoriesâ here on ET. Perhaps, due to the degradation of mankind in this age, God through the medium of intuition is giving the intelligence to a few seekers how to make a more powerful telescope, so that the findings of the AWESOME telescopes will again inspire some people to begin to study that, which is not matter. Something from nothing? I did not know that Gordon Gecko allowed you to use his âatheistâs definitionâ of logic. Letâs have a discussion based on the definition that ânothingâ means or is the cause of âsomethingâ. LETâS NOT! Life is life. Matter is matter. Life is that which is not matter. Matter is that which is not life. They both have their different natures. Deal with it.
They, if anyone had better start 'dealing with it' here, i think it's you. i noticed you completely ignored my post that debunks the necessity of the universe being caused. i suppose that helps you sleep easier. stop talking about that eastern philosophy crap, and start giving some reasons why someone should accept it. if it really is nothing more than the feel-good speculation of a bunch of ancients who had know way of knowing what we today, then i'd like to hear it.
Adjusted score after replay review from the "Head Referee": Headed to Hell: 99,399,394 non-religious Headed to Heaven: 5,224 humble souls Gordon Gecko is charged with a time out.
yowza. still trips me out how popular this subject is, and on a trading board no less. had planned to wade back in, but enjoying the view from the sidelines too much. if this is any indication of the pent up general interest at large, my philosophical novel may have a better chance of getting published than i thought (some day, far from today...) props to both sides for some quality interaction...