It is NOT obvious that low-fat diets are the healthier choice. The Mediteranean diets, the french diet, and the blubber eating eskimo diets are high in fat, and are examples of cultures with less heart disease than americans. So you see, the "forest" you are proposing is exactly what is being challenged by these "radical" diets. "I really can't quite see why you're so hung up on whether it was the "Ornish protocal" " Because longshot entered this thread with the END ALL answer to all dieting, and made the ridiculous claim that the Ornish diet was the ONLY, and yes he said **ONLY** diet with objective definitive PROOF that it can reverse heart disease. THEN he consistently failed to provide a SINGLE study which used the Ornish protocol. Thats why. "I mean, there are probably God knows how many joggers and non-smokers out there that develop heart disease, so your insistence on the possible importance of these factors seems pretty weird." And there are countless French, Greeks and Eskimos who eat tons of fat that DONT. It is NOT a clear cut case. Diet and the human body is extremly COMPLEX and I am not aware of ANYONE who can claim they have all the answers. And certainly not longshot. He has failed to support ANY of his assertions to date. peace axeman
A great deal of what was believed to be "logical" has turned out to be nonsense. That's the whole point of scientific research. Axeman has been correct regarding the research design right down the line. Though if you've already made up your mind, you may find it difficult to understand that. Yes, there are joggers and non-smokers out there who develop heart disease. But there are many on high-fat diets who don't. Again, that's the point of research.
I agree, and one of the largest providers of this evidence is the China Study. This massive body of work is essential study for anyone who wants to gather a little clarity on the subject of diet and health. A couple of links about the China Study - http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et1101/et1101s18.html http://free.freespeech.org/nhn/china.html
Alfonso, Need I say more??? Surely you would never agree to such an absolute? If this doesn't completely discredit longshots position, then I don't know what does. peace axeman
Unfortunately, you have no way of knowing that by doing nothing more than reading the conclusions of this or any other study. You can be spoon-fed, or you can look at the data yourself, along with the research design, to determine what exactly is being tested and how the variables are being controlled. Look, for example, at the Food in China link on the first page of your second link. Look also at the information on American Indian diets on the second page. Since LS is simple-minded, he looks for simple answers. Unfortunately, this particular subject is not simple.
I still think their missing the point that western diets eat too much sugar including simple carbs. If this consumption of carbs is out of balance then fat will be degenerative as it points out. Otherwise a diet in low carbs will inhibit the negative aspects of fat and animal products in a diet, which historically is the normal state of the human diet.