trading the Globex mini or micro currency contracts ?

Discussion in 'Forex' started by Wallace, Feb 24, 2011.

  1. virtualmoney:
    first question - believe so, tho don't know what orders can be entered via NinjaTrader
    second question - no, no and don't know
    here's one chart example of an NFP release from Aug/09:
    http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172655
    as you'll see by the price bars during the first 10 secs of the 8:30 minute, the price
    has swings of as much as 14 pips in less than half a second

    and speaking of the NFP, Oanda is notorious for disconnecting the data feed either
    before, during or just after the release, see the Oanda forum for the many posts of
    complaint about this, it's something the CRTC and NFA should be investigating and
    putting a stop to
     
    #11     Feb 26, 2011
  2. cvds16

    cvds16

    Wallace, your long post is a total misinterpretation, if you go market there is a spread to pay in fx-futures, the total spread will be much more than oanda cost in like 98% of the times.
    Furthermore it doesn't seem too smart to get fixated with NFP: that's a once in month event with a very doubtfull outcome.
     
    #12     Feb 26, 2011
  3. CME e-micro futures are not competitive compared to Gain mini FX

    Look at M6E versus Mini EUR/USD

    M6E Tick = $1.25
    M6E Spread = 3 ticks ($3.75)
    Commission = $1 per side
    Liquidity: 10 level DOM
    Leverage Intraday: 100:1
    Overnight: 30:1
    Deficiency Liability: Personal and Unlimited
    Counter Party: Exchange Traded

    Averaged out transaction cost = $5.75 - $9.50 per contract.

    Mini EUR/USD with Fractional Pips:
    Minimum Tick = $0.125
    Minimum Spread: 1.6 Pips
    Average Spread: 2.2 Pips
    Volatile Spread: 20 Pips
    Liquidity: 25 lots per advertised price
    Leverage: 50:1 US 200:1 UK
    Deficiency Liability: None
    Counter Party: Gain

    Averaged out transaction cost $2 to $5

    In general you need an 8 tick move trading the futures just to break even versus 3 pips for Fx. Fills are based on liquidity of DOM versus Gain auto fill as counter party. No contract expiration or roll overs to deal with which would add to your trading costs. With FX you either earn or are charged overnight interest without additional margin requirement.

    Downside of FX is you live and die by the integrity of your broker. They provide your trading platform, data feed, execution, credit and are counter party. In effect you are playing their video game.


    If you trade the larger sized contracts the futures are more competitive and IMHO a safer exchange / regulated derivative.
     
    #13     Feb 26, 2011
  4. [​IMG] In effect you are playing their video game. (quote from PocketChange)
     
    #14     Feb 26, 2011
  5. I've often wondered how FX Dealers get around gaming rules and laws.
    From a software perspective it would be relatively easy to program in a house edge. 100 ms is about the limit a human can react and respond to information but is an eternity for their computers. Just the shear tick volume of price changes, jumps and gaps generated by their platform is worth a study.

    Without a centralized exchange, FIFO order book and published order matching rules the price changes are arbitrary and unilaterally controlled and decided by Gain.

    http://www.nfa.futures.org/news/newsRel.asp?ArticleID=3676

    NFA orders $459,000 monetary sanction against New Jersey forex firm Gain Capital Group LLC

    October 28, Chicago - National Futures Association (NFA) has ordered Gain Capital Group LLC (Gain), a forex dealer member located in Bedminster, New Jersey, to pay a $459,000 fine as a result of an NFA Complaint issued and a settlement offer submitted by Gain and its chief executive officer, Glenn H. Stevens.

    NFA's Business Conduct Committee alleged that Gain engaged in abusive margin, liquidation and price slippage practices that benefited Gain to the detriment of its customers. The Committee also alleged that Gain failed to maintain records for certain unfilled orders, failed to adequately review the activities and promotional material of the firm's unregistered solicitors, and failed to supervise the firm's operations.

    In addition to the fine amount, Gain must also provide appropriate refunds to its customers as a result of these detrimental margin, liquidation and asymmetrical slippage practices.

    Gain and Stevens neither admitted nor denied the charges. The complete text of the Complaint and Decision are available on NFA's website (www.nfa.futures.org).

    I suppose one should take into account fraud factors when comparing competitiveness of trading CME FX Futures to Forex.

     
    #15     Feb 26, 2011
  6. cvds16: you appear confused and mixed up, and comparing apples with bananas

    what I've stated about spreads relates to the fx broker's fee for processing a trade

    from some brokers the spread is constantly variable, and as well, may at any time
    and without warning, widen, considerably

    futures contracts have a FIXED cost fee - commission for processing a trade

    cvds16: "if you go market there is a spread to pay in fx-futures, the total spread
    will be much more than oanda cost in like 98% of the times."
    I have no idea why you think that
    not withstanding what's stated above, the price you'd Buy/Sell at market at Oanda
    would be the same price you'd Buy/Sell the futures contract, excepting, there's a
    difference in what Oanda considers the 'current price'; compare Oanda's quotes with
    the chart prices of say Alpari, FXCM, FxPro, Gain etc, and, the futures market; but
    even simultaneous market orders don't gurantee a same price fill since the various fx
    brokers price quotes are not in synch with each other, nor the Globex, neither are
    their spread/fees the same, and even Oanada's MT4 price quote is different to the
    Oanda FXTrade quote

    futures contracts have a Bid/Ask difference of usually 1-2 pips - often more for the
    M6E and E7 due to their low volume, however a market order is just that, and, if in
    the milliseconds of deciding to and then clicking on the Buy Market/Sell Market
    button the futures price jumps +/- 4 pips and the fx broker's price doesn't, then I
    guess you would think that "the total spread will be much more than oanda cost"

    of course, if that 4 pips jump resulted in a lower Buy price or higher Sell price than
    Oanda's price . . .

    the term spread then refers to both a Bid/Ask price difference, And, the fee an fx
    broker charges to process the trade, which is derived from the spread, and imo
    should anyways be referred to as an fx broker's commission to avoid the confusion
    some have regarding the 'Bid/Ask spread' and commission/fee fx brokers charge for
    processing a trade

    the Bid/Ask difference has nothing to do with the cost of trading a futures contract/
    lot; the price paid is the price paid in both cases, the fee however that is charged
    in order to execute the trade is Fixed when trading futures, Variable when trading fx
    and calculated on the Bid/Ask spread that broker has determined at the time of that
    trade and which may be a smaller or larger cost minutes or seconds later

    of course one's entitled to use Limit Orders guaranteeing the price paid, at the same
    fixed cost with a futures broker, versus a guaranteed price paid with an fx broker but
    not at a fixed cost, and at who knows what spread/fee/commission price/cost

    CME Globex currency futures markets and retail fx broker markets are not the same

    so far as being "fixated with NFP", I was answering virtualmoney's questions, so I
    suggest you take your fixation with my response to virtualmoney and give him your
    opinion about NFP trading
    however, 'news trading' is not limited to the NFP; 'news reports' are being released
    'all the time' which you'd of course know about because you checked the calendar
    here for instance: http://www.forexfactory.com/ as well as having seen the effect of
    say an Italian flash report causing Oanda's spread to widen to 10 pips for several
    minutes before/during/after the release, accompanied by large erratic price moves

    oh and lets see if Oanda disconnects the feed this Friday as it commonly does so
    you can't trade - neither enter a new trade nor close an existing position

    if in doubt about what 'news trading' is, perhaps this example may help, and I see
    there were 6 releases last week that the analyst/trader thought tradeable:
    http://www.forexpeacearmy.com/forex...g-signals-overview-february-21-25-2011-a.html
    and don't forget the news 'indictators' for both MT and NT that display realtime news
    reports, economic releases etc on the chart page
     
    #16     Feb 27, 2011
  7. I think you are way overthinking this...the CME Globex micro's are regulated and safe-who cares about slippage and commission and ain't gonna blow your account with $1.25 per tick-just my thoughts-try it out-again my thoughts
     
    #17     Feb 27, 2011

  8. I think you should go buy some gold and silver bars from Kitco and stay off the boards. I don't think trading is your thing.

    Oanda 1.2 pip spreads vs an illiquid market and steep commissions.

    Is Oanda the apple or the banana?
     
    #18     Feb 28, 2011
  9. increasenow: it's not 'overthinking', the problem is a lot of fx traders no little or nothing
    about futures, hence their questions

    the E7 and M6E are ok for longer session trades, but not for 'scalping', they just don't
    move for minutes at a time as I learnt last night

    Buy&Hold trading, basically D W M charts is best done with an fx broker since there's
    no increase in margin

    I never had a problem 'scalping' with Oanda, instant fills/closes, click and filled, and
    they do have 30 10 and 5 second charts, but the margin is only 50:1
    if you're able to open an account with a 500:1 fx broker, great

    so if you want to 'scalp' and want the leverage then it has to be the 6E, and the $500
    daytrading margin

    and note that the futures markets close for one hour between 2 and 3pm PST
     
    #19     Feb 28, 2011
  10. Jaba122

    Jaba122

    Wallace, I scalp 6E intraday. However I use smaller leverage, the $500/contract just makes me too nervous.

    Regarding smaller contracts, the spread is not the only thing you should be worrying about. M6E is good for swing, just keep in mind that you can not use stops with this one. The Bid/Ask quote just moves up and down with the FX Spot, but often there are no trades to trigger your stop. Especially overnight. You would probably find the market trading 20 pips beyond your stopwithout getting triggered. Low volume is why you can see the thin M6E chart you posted before. E7 is a little better in this aspect, there is more volume, and better spread than M6E, but you'll have the same issue with stops not triggering due to lack of transactions. They just sweep the B/A on the DOM.

    just my 2c
     
    #20     Feb 28, 2011