Trading Psychosis

Discussion in 'Psychology' started by masterm1ne, Oct 25, 2016.

  1. Andrea Wylan

    Andrea Wylan Sponsor

    trading brings us face to face with ourselves which is why it's so hard. Robert from Lightspeed posted a webinar here that I did on trader mindset that might help you see why this is happening. I'd suggest first, try not to beat yourself up, 2nd don't listen to traders who don't understand the impact of psychology on trading. Consider getting some support so you can get clear what is going on inside you. It sounds like a mindset issue, not a trading issue.
     
    #31     Oct 29, 2016
    Trading Education Buyer and b4i like this.
  2. Simples

    Simples

    Not sure what "trading psychosis" is and can find no such term on the internet except this thread. However, normally psychotic people are unable to communicate understandably with other people, and are seen as speaking and acting incoherently. So I highly doubt your long post is from a psychotic mind, which is a severe condition that should be treated by competent doctors to prevent worsening.

    What you're experiencing sounds more like a mental or emotional trauma, which I think most traders can relate to, especially those having tried daytrading. It's hard: not doing anything, waiting, for an entry, for an exit, for anything and knowing nothing. Which is why we build trading systems, because the emotional drain is not worth it. Very few people can take it and thrive. This trauma is usually easy to cure: Go away, do something else, go in nature, exercise, use your body. In time, it'll pass.

    I am an extremely talented trader. Every day that passes, I usually have a position on that would make anywhere from $500-1k on the measly 1 lot I'm trading.

    REALLY? On a 1 lot? Are you consistently making this, or is this "would make" if only, aka wishful thinking. If you don't make enough money, then whatever talent you've got isn't giving you the results you work for. Time to rethink and replan, rather than keep patting yourself on your back and feeding your traumas.

    You see, the reasons why you exit for a small gain or loss is very rational: You simply don't know wether the next trade will be a win or loss, keep gaining or turn red on a dime. Every minute, second and tick could change everything, so it's actually irrational to hold & pray, because over time the odds will be stacked against your one trade the closer your stops are. So as other here also suggested, you may need to deleverage and have stops further out, put on smaller positions and build on success, not failure. Even break-even is a phenomenal success compared to consistently losing, and can be built on. This is impossible if you think you're already an accomplished trader. Honesty will help you see what you need to improve. You see, what you or others call yourself doesn't really matter.

    Btw, what are those dots in your diagram? They seem to be very close to price action, and if used as stops, no wonder you get stopped out too early regularly!
     
    #32     Nov 2, 2016

  3. Usually those who aim for profit every day , evenually get messed up in the head .The sun shines only sometimes . but trying to make hay every day is an illusion , it usually leads to trading phsychosis.It leads to a xxxxed up mindset , it is not suitable for trading .

    https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sour...&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=trading is a patience game

    https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sour...=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#tbm=vid&q=trading+patience
     
    #33     Nov 2, 2016
  4. DDR

    DDR

    I'll state the obvious first:
    The randomness of price action is completely opposite to our nature as humans, we crave certainty and safety.
    So how to deal with what is foreign to us ?
    Trading requires a totally passive and calm approach, if you find yourself in a stressed state during trading.
    Errors in judgement WILL occur, ones that will appear obvious after the fact.
    A long time trader was asked how did he make money all those years, he said, "I never bet big".
    So this game is one that is played out over the long run and how you play it is proportionate to your account size. In essence small size large stops will increase your winning ratios if your struggling. The next level with larger size can be considered once a measurable track record can be analysed.

    To be more specific on masterm1nes original 1st post. Your trying to make back money lost which when a mistake happens is greatly magnified. Andrea said it right you need support from other traders not just advice in posts but to work with a fresh pair of eyes and mind. This is what's lacking IMO in the trading community, "someone to talk to" instead of suffering in silence. Yes posts help but it would be just another step toward resolving issues a trader might be experiencing at the time.

    MM step away analyse what your doing right and wrong, start again being VERY careful not to repeat the same mistakes. It can be done but not everyone is capable of the high discipline that trading requires. Failing always precedes success.

    Skype me for a conversation if you feel the need.
    dline101
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
    #34     Nov 4, 2016
    masterm1ne, Simples and Andrea Wylan like this.
  5. Andrea Wylan

    Andrea Wylan Sponsor

    I have often thought it would be helpful to have a "traders anonymous" 12 step program for traders!
     
    #35     Nov 4, 2016
    murray t turtle likes this.
  6. Mtrader

    Mtrader

    If this is true, why do people not adapt their behavior as statistics show that their actual behavior leads to UNcertainty and Unsafety? If they really want certainty and safety it is clear they should change their behavior.

    Maybe they know they should change but miss the knowledge or the ability to link elements of trading together into one logical system.

    I know people who ask themselves: where should I start? What will work? How to adapt to avoid losses? So the problem might not be unnatural behavior, as they know they should change things, but missing knowledge.

    Randomness of prices? Obvious? Not at all to me. My personal experience learned me that what looked randomness was in fact my missing knowledge. Now most of the moves are logical to me and hard proof confirmed this, so it is not an impression or feeling that I have. My number of winning or losing trades, combined with the average size of the profits or losses are hard proof that cannot be denied.

    Besides of that a lot of people are not fitted for trading because of other reasons (emotional, missing rationality, perseverance, weak financial situation, discipline, to big EGO...) that have nothing to do with our natural reaction to trading.

    As soon as you find the missing links you will be totally passive and have a calm approach. Stress will almost completely disappear, which will result in the ability to let your profits run.
    It is not about trading big or small. It is about betting small. Betting small means that you know what you do and have control over your trades. Having control means: know statistically what the outcome will be in the long run, and know when to get out. You bet small if the probability of making good money is high; has nothing to do with the size of your position.

    A lot of people should not say: randomness of price action is completely opposite to our nature as humans.
    They should say: I don't have the qualifications to become a successful trader. But their ego prevents them from admitting this. Maybe self destructing behavior?

    Or for another group: they are simply too stupid. Hard but true. From the whole population living on earth, over 90% miss the needed abilities to become successful traders. So there is a high probability that this applies to you and me too. Thinking that we are smarter (this is what most people do) than the average Joe will not change that in real life, only in your fantasy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
    #36     Nov 5, 2016
  7. I think you guys are very pessimistic. But that is just my opinion.
    Trading successfully is not an impossible thing. Again my opinion.

    To masterm1ne : this is a test you can decide to try and check hypothesis for yourself.
    You said you tried meditation. So try the ten days retreat I have seen bring real results, then trade for just one week as you are swing trading.
    Take back a 10 days retreat. Then do not trade for one month, do not do any retreat, then restart trading again for one week: compare the percentage of each move you banked during each week of tradings. Then ask yourself what was different. This will give you insight into what in your unique personality you have to work on. Your real issues will never be exactly like someone's else, because you are unique.



    Nearly finished my prep :D
     
    #37     Nov 5, 2016
    masterm1ne likes this.

  8. Five fundamental truths:
    1. Anything can happen.
    2. You don’t need to know what is going to happen next in order to make money.
    3. There is a random distribution between wins and losses for any given set of variables that
    define an edge.
    4. An edge is nothing more than an indication of a higher probability of one thing happening
    over another.
    5. Every moment in the market is unique.
    – Mark Douglas
     
    #38     Nov 5, 2016
  9. Mtrader

    Mtrader

    What is true for somebody can be false for someone else. Not only in trading, in every aspect of life.
    That's why there are so many different trading strategies. (S/R, Fibonacci, tape reading, TA, gambling...). If Mark Douglas would be right everybody would do the same and only 1 strategy would exist. But it would make trading impossible too as there would be no counterparty anymore.
     
    #39     Nov 5, 2016
  10. Simples

    Simples

    Human beings are wired to make decisions by their emotions, not by hard facts. Without emotions, human beings cannot make good common sense decisions anymore. This is shown by people suffering brain injury that takes emotions away from them. This applies to all human beings, also so-called sceptics, who are trying to fool others as well as themselves.

    So it's not really so far-fetched that markets are inherently counter-intuitive for human beings. Markets are hard enough, but when you pin wins and losses to their outcome, our emotions go nuts and make most people do even worse decisions than normal. When you exit the position, the pain goes away and the mind goes back to normal, but then it's too late.

    This is not to say humans cannot be logical and relate to cold, hard facts, but may need the right temperament or training for it. However, often when we see someone excel at something, humans instinctively tend to think there's some magic short-cut behind it, not thousands of hours of analysis and training, rewirings of the brain as well as machine.
     
    #40     Nov 5, 2016