Really? I always find myself somewhat suspicious of people who choose to use 500 words where 50 would have been ample. But that's just me. Perhaps the poster you refer to would do well to apply Africatrader's principles of simplicity to his own misguided and unfortunate efforts at communication. Reading his posts, I get the impression that they were translated back and forth a few times across 3 or 4 different languages by well-meaning but inexperienced translators before their final posting. But, again, that's just me. The tragedy is that he may well have something useful to say. Unfortunately, I'll never know.
08-14-06 12:38 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote from infolode: I like this guy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really? I always find myself somewhat suspicious of people who choose to use 500 words where 50 would have been ample. But that's just me. Perhaps the poster you refer to would do well to apply Africatrader's principles of simplicity to his own misguided and unfortunate efforts at communication. Reading his posts, I get the impression that they were translated back and forth a few times across 3 or 4 different languages by well-meaning but inexperienced translators before their final posting. But, again, that's just me. The tragedy is that he may well have something useful to say. Unfortunately, I'll never know. Africa's principles of simplicity do apply to everything more or less. You are correct that communications from one person to another must be as clear, concise and crisp as possible to convey the facts. Strunk and White emphasize this and I do this to communicate facts and information. My posts are not designed for the above, however. And there is another aspect of them which I have not been able to communicate to you so far. These two considerations have not gotten across to you for reasons that I am still trying to fathom. First of all my posts are designed to allow a person to learn. I post learning materials so to speak. A TM for the military or an intstruction manual from IBM, for example. One is training the other is instructional. I merge both into my posts. Secondly, my posts stem from a different paradigm than the one you are oriented to. That orientation to your paradigm is not complete nor well formed. As you have informed us as to the shift in orientation you are going through; it appears to be an assimulation that is locking you into a set of beliefs that are becoming more and more conventional. you dig this progress you are making in the direction you are going. I use a paradigm and build upon it in posts that are presented for learning the paradigm I am advocating. this paradigm does not overlap yours to any extent and it is incumbant upon me, at all times, to not have a reader get into a modus where he is using what I say to fit in with or compliment that which does not overlap in the two paradigms. The 1 and 1/2 page attachment will show you clearly, concisely and crisply how differently someone like me gets to and uses the rationale that I do. You have eliminated yourself, systemmatically, from the consideration of what this attachment conveys. Since you have arrived at ET, you have gone through a lot of change and you have become more and more certain of that of which you speak. Now you cannot consider a wide range of facts and information nor do you do much intellectual processing of what is before you. Many people, in fact most people do not get to ever see the markets. At first they are far away and as they approach, they do not ever get to see the markets simply because they are swept away by the conventional wisdom all about them and what is proferred for viewing the markets. Almost no computer that I have ever seen in an office or a home office is displaying a view of the markets or the data the markets provide. I sometimes spend days on such computers going through the transition required for the person to have the markets come into view. I write about the view that I can get a computer to display. It is very difficult for a person to read, reread and reread what I write to carry out the process of learning from it which I convey. I convey a learning process by that which I write. It is such that a person has pictures of the markets with which to deal. Generally, what I say is not understandable. Spelling, syntax and grammar are not the issues nor is the length since it HAS to be read over and over and over to get from a pre post state to a learned state from completing the process. Now a days I backup everything with videos that reinforce the words dynamically. The videos are transcribed and illustrated in color. 2 hours is about 135 pages of trnascription and figures and charts. the videos are backed up by drills that are carried out many many times to inculcate the work of viewing the computer and getting something from the screen displaying the markets. It is not any wonder to me that 90 to 95 % of the trading public is operating in a state of failure. They are looking at screens that do not show the markets. They are not learning as time passes. They are doing what you do. Simply reading and subjecting the reading to what is already known and adding bits and pieces to something that is not real. At anytime on ET there may be 400 or so people participating where half of them only view and read. Others are posting in the manner that you post and comment. This set of people are stating that they are uninformed and are not learning anything and they are blamers providing words to other in any direction they happen to face. "Really?" is your response to "I like this guy". Others in ET count "fucks" when I give out a "fuck" counting drill. They are learning from me how to count "fucks" and they all get different answers which shows everyone that they are poor "fuck" counters. I have just broadened my audience reading this as you know. There is a tradegy and you do not know which one I am speaking of. the tradegy that you speak of is actually a filter that helps people to not read me or to put me on ignore. It is a good idea for 4 out of 5 people to put me on ignore of just pass on reading me. Ignore makes it easier. People who are not able to understand the requirements for learning about markets need to not invest any time at all in reading what I write. I address being able to see the markets as in a way that is as real as is possible. I advocate, further, that learning is a process that is very very important to understand and follow no matter what persuasion you have for making money. There are many ways to make money and I advocate using ways that extract the potential that is there effectively and efficiently. The market states just what is there and when it is available. You have not perceived any of these four items so far. You have made the choices required to steer a path that avoided each and every item of the four above. The work of learning and being successful, in the setting of ET is as follows: 1. Read a thread that has substantive content. Start with 75 printed page threads as minimums. 2. Figure out the groupings of he participants from some viewpoint that is familiar to you. 3. cross out the chaff. (one time posters, known air heads, the dummies, etc. 4. Find the substantive dialogue and the topics of the thread. 5. Learn each viewpoint and it's goods and bads. 6. Learn why people have these viewpoints and learn how and why other have reasons and perspectives for thier misunderstanding, opposition and contrarian views. 7. you have taken sides and you now have learned what is going on. 8. sift through to the truth of the matters a hand and begin to adopt them. 9. Make a tentative count of the number of times you have read the printout. Now you are ready to begin learning. 10. Reread the printout all the way through. 11. Reread the printout again and come to an understanding of how those participants who learned anything did what they did. 12. Figure out why the chaff is stuck where it is. Figure out how you got past this stonewall they are hitting. 13. Figure out why most of the participants are screwed up. Figure out how you can avoid that. In the threads you participate in, you are usually a screw up. 14. In your jounal write down what you have adopted from the first 13 steps. 15 Keep track in your trading log and journal when you used, successfully an idea that you got for making money from your studies of the thread. 16. Do another thread that is one of the best that is continuing. For the time being, don't take on any threads that are designed to make money for you. You aren't ready for that yet. Applying money to your current belief system isn't going to make you any money. At some point it may cross your mind why reading books doesn't work. They cannot provide a process for you to complete. Reading is not a process for learning. The reading of a thread does nothing to allow a person to learn. Threads have to be worked upon. Work is a process that you have avoided for learning about trading so far. I am in a phase of my life where I am intent upon making people rich in order that they be able to help others in the same way they were helped to become rich. Further it is my interest to convey to them that they help their communities with the surpluses that they generate.
I do believe that we have come to an agreement in connection with your above quoted observation. As for the rest, you are a pied piper encouraging unsuspecting adherents to believe that they will be ultimately rewarded by playing meaningless games of mind pretzel while you lord your "wisdom" over them. Puffery, no matter how profound it may come across to the undiscerning, is still puffery. And even if you did have anything meaningful to convey, you are intentionally making it inaccessible with your cryptic prose. A suitable analogy is that of a man ordering his dog to beg, roll over, and jump while keeping the snack just out of reach. Oh, how you must relish that! Just be sure to not let the dog see that all you are holding is a turd. Your messianic mien is showing. Again. Oh, and thanks for predicting my fate. Everyone loves a free reading, and some parlor games never lose their charm.
Thanks for your response. It is a concise commentary on why 4 out of 5 people do not consider or use what I feel is are good approaches to making money to the extent that the market continually offers it. How you got to the analogy is worth everyone's personal consideration. Strange. I haven't run across such a person in my experience. You may have more than once for all we know. Those who do use them have results that speak for themselves and their success is a consequence of doing the work. I chose a third party example (go to any thread etc......) since I do not have any threads that I initiated on ET for the express purpose of charting a path from assessor to beginner to intermediate to expert to paying it forward. I forgot the attachment I referenced and it is probably just as well.
Consider it said. What I say is not understood, generally. But the theme of my posts is intended to deal with the questions and considerations in the attached file. The file says: Overall Path for Achieving an Effective Money Making Program Summary. Below, in five Parts, are a series of questions that can be considered by anyone. I feel that they will lead to success, in a fairly efficient manner. Completing partial answers is a fine way to begin. You get a status report by just taking an inventory of where you are. This set of questions provides an overall path and I am posting it to get a scope and bounds for what I will contribute as my views on each and every question. I am also going to try to do some learning about linking references and going back many many years in different computers where I have stored materials that are full of writeups that are in differing software. Part I Markets 1. What is the basic principle for making money? 2. How do markets work? 3. What are the variables? 4. How do the variables relate? 5. What are the mathematics of making money? 6. Specifically, where can money be made? Part II People 1. What is the particular scope of involvement for making money? a. Gathering Data. b. Doing analysis c. Making decisions d. Taking actions 2. How does a person begin to get involved? Part III Just Doing It (Getting Going) 1. How does a person choose the place to make money? 2. How does a person set up a money making plan of action? 3. How does a person build a track record using the plan? 4. Learning to gather data. 5. Learning to analyze. 6. Learning to decide. 7. Learning to act. Part IV Iterative Refinement (Knowing How to Know). 1. Knowing how to improve gathering data. 2. Interrelating facts to know what is going on. 3. Knowing what you believe and making it complete. 4. how to know all about profits and losses. Part V Be, Do, Have Results. 1. how to debrief yourself. 2. The prime value of passing it forward. 3. Enlarging your works. To use this, a person would have to fill in some stuff. To use the analogy, if I were teaching a dog, I would be doing the filling in and checking that the dog was getting it. I do do rewards, however when I mentor; especially the kind thunderdog drums up to paint a picture of me. I did the steps I outlined in the my post that you repsonded to for the disillusioned thread since I am the one who got the PM before the OP posted. There were 68 respondents in the printout which I did in two parts 1 through 48 and 49 through 79. The major themes involved: Basic beliefs, methods, failures (and why), myths, commiseration, and empathy. Specifc thems under these headings are numerous as anyone could imagine. BertH interacted 25 times for an assorted number of thems and sub themes. Tdog's comments happen to appear on printout pages 70, 72 nd 73, coincidentally. I plan to continue to respond to bertH since he asked. He will probably have some comments from me in each of the bold parts mostly as a convenience to me since it is also a template I use to keep track of how things are going for people I track and do other things with. So how does a person blow it when they spend so much time trying to trade? Once I spent time tracking trend faders first posts. It was a lot more pages than the 79 mentioned here. The paths most people follow on ET is fucking amazing.
the rest of my comments. it was too long for one post....... I spend one session going through part l. for remote persons; it takes a few hours of camtasias that are broken into the questions in pairs mostly. The next session involves a few hours of debriefing on the first session and we will get into Part II and the person has a week to come up with the IAS's on 25 stocks by doing five selections per day for 5 days. This Monday I did a first session with two retired women. On Wednesday one of the two retired ladies asked about a stock we saw on Monday that she remembered. Look at Monday chart of the stock on clearstation; it is truebeliever (a neat name coincidence for Tdog to plow into his mytical orientation) On Wednesday afternoon we looked at clearstation again and the truebleliever chart had advanced two days. It was up 7.4% the Wednesday day and about the same on tuesday. So we culled it in the first session and she looked at the culled stocks and they were on their way. She sent the following to me on Thursday: "I made my list this morning from stock tables.com and am pretty confident that I have that down pat. If you have the time to compare it to your list I would appreciate it. 7's o's 1's 1. LEAP IHR SKX 2. ITC FRP EGN 3. IIG CHRW LIFC 4. BMC DLLR SM 5. BAP DDS WOOF 6. TRLG ETP EZPW 7. JDAS CTR FFFL 8. ALJ LDSH MDRX 9. HITT PWR ISSX 10 WBCO JAG RNWK From yesterday FFFL has gone from a 0 to a 1 WBCO and ITC have both remained 7'as. I will choose those three to print out charts and fill in the daily analysis sheet." These two people agreed that one of them will type up the notes. I get the notes by email it turns out and there are Q's on the cover sheet... lol They meet inbetween my meetings to compare IAS's on common stocks. They also attend the interim IBD meetings in their areas. They also are paired with members who are further along. I spend most of my time with those who have an office set up for trading stocks and trading commodities. There I average about 20 pages of notes a day and maybe one or two camtasias a day. That last runup on Thursday on ES was a net of 3 points per contract; it lasted about 45 minutes on a beginner level. We debriefed after that since things were flat. The debriefing ended and I was home by two ohurs after the market closed. If a person used the attachment to organize his learning, what would happen? How long does it take to be able to pick winners every day??? Looks like about one day: the first day. What is the reward? It is not in my hands as the analogy offered suggests. No body's doing tricks for me either. What are they doing? Anything but tricks. The person typing the notes got a 10B HP as a gift from the other person. Why? because they need to run the 10B's to see what it is worth to hold a stock for a period of time and to roll the capital over from one stock to the next. They did NTRI in the first session to see what it looks like to trade it four times (A lot of people in the IBD group have traded it up to four times.) One person has averaged 30% per hold period of an average of 4 days each. the 10B I have they used to run the numbers to see what 1/2 a years gains would be on NTRI by putting the money in for a period like four holds of cycles. What would he compound interest formula give as the multiplier for a stream of money that was turned over every once in a while??? We all know that the backtesting shows this stuff doesn't work except where people do do it and post their results for over a year and the print out on the first portion of the postings without references is about 1500 pages. If you read this post closely it says get a 10B to answer question 5 in part I. Four trades at 30% done by a beginner begin to answer the Q as to what a stream of capital is used for part of the time. Done by a beginner means the beginner finds the stock, uses timing knowledge to trade the stock, trades the stock the same way each time it is there to trade. Compounds the money by trading stocks in between the times when a given stock is not in the picture. We shoot for half the run of the cycle. Enter late and leave early. 30 % on average for NTRI is above 10% target. It is just a stock that has a better position on the list compared to ther stocks. The box on the right side of the top of the IAS is what is used to put the sheets in order. Thank God you don't have to read my posts on all of this. Many others have made the posts.. How many people will make a copy of two pages? Not many How many people will fill in the answers and use them? Not many How many people will I mentor with the sheet? Not many How many people will give the sheet to someone else and give them DC's of the camtasias? Not many How many people using the stuff will make money? About all of them these days. The humor of all of this is that I may actually be helping T dog to learn to roll over someday. Teaching is a myth. Nobody really teaches. If anything ever happens it is that people learn by doing the work. Use the 10B to calculate doing natural cycles of tradig high quality stocks in a timely manner. It is so funny to see all the different answers that people can get. Especially if you do a business plan using your learning curve. It is as thunderdog says "unbelievable" what a 10B will show on the window. How many people will do a few calcs and then do a buiness plan for their family? How many people will use a business plan as an incentive to do the work to learn? More and more every year is the answer. How many people will pass it forward???? I need an Oscar Meyer vehicle..... We need more and more Fast Dogs out there.... As I have been told there are two very diverse groups out there: those that have chosen to make money and those who have not. Same make up in the groups. Same kinds of people. so why do we have a group that is chosing to not make money? Its because I can't write..
Look, if you want to help people, whoever they may be, then fine. If you want them to learn what you have to offer, then say what you have to say in complete and simple point form without all of the meaningless rhetoric and unadulterated bullshit that does nothing other than draw gratuitous attention to you. And if you don't really want to help anyone, then that's OK, too. Just don't act like you want to help when you really don't. I get the impression that you like taunting people by imposing artificial barriers of comprehension for your own entertainment and pleasure. Do you also enjoy whispering to the hearing impaired?
Here is a proposal: 1. JackH should nominate one or more charity organisations of which each shall then open a trading account with say IB. 2. Some of JackH's students may only want to donate some seed capital to these accounts. 3. One or more of JackH's best students will trade the organisations' accounts individually. 4. Every charity organisation anytime can use its account's money as much as they want to, as more seed capital and profits will be added monthly. 5. Each charity organisation will post its account's monthly P/L results (profits and capital added) on ET.