TQQQ...

Discussion in 'ETFs' started by Saltynuts, May 20, 2021.

  1. Not sure what to say about this. However in the Nas crash after the .com bubble, one particular leveraged mutual fund (a Rydex fund, and if I recall correctly it was "only" 2x leverage) lost -97.5% of it's value. No recovering from that. Tragic story around that too for one financial advisor who "bought the dip" and decided to "hang on and ride it out" through the bear market.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
    #21     May 21, 2021
  2. Maybe you're thinking "linear" when you should be thinking "log"?? (I trust my calculations are correct. I ran them twice... on my ancient TI BA-II) :)
     
    #22     May 21, 2021

  3. I must definitely be thinking about it wrong, linear versus log I guess it is. Here is $100 growing at 1% a day, and $33.33 growing at 3% a day. Yea, its the log thing for sure. :)


    100 33.33
    101 34.3299
    102.01 35.359797
    103.0301 36.42059091
    104.060401 37.51320864
    105.101005 38.6386049
    106.1520151 39.79776304
    107.2135352 40.99169593
    108.2856706 42.22144681
    109.3685273 43.48809022
    110.4622125 44.79273292
    111.5668347 46.13651491
    112.682503 47.52061036
    113.809328 48.94622867
    114.9474213 50.41461553
    116.0968955 51.927054
    117.2578645 53.48486562
    118.4304431 55.08941158
    119.6147476 56.74209393
    120.810895 58.44435675
    122.019004 60.19768745
    123.239194 62.00361808
    124.471586 63.86372662
    125.7163018 65.77963842
    126.9734649 67.75302757
    128.2431995 69.7856184
    129.5256315 71.87918695
    130.8208878 74.03556256
    132.1290967 76.25662943
    133.4503877 78.54432832
    134.7848915 80.90065816
    136.1327404 83.32767791
    137.4940679 85.82750825
    138.8690085 88.40233349
    140.2576986 91.0544035
    141.6602756 93.7860356
    143.0768784 96.59961667
    144.5076471 99.49760517
    145.9527236 102.4825333
    147.4122509 105.5570093
    148.8863734 108.7237196
    150.3752371 111.9854312
    151.8789895 115.3449941
    153.3977794 118.805344
    154.9317572 122.3695043
    156.4810747 126.0405894
    158.0458855 129.8218071
    159.6263443 133.7164613
    161.2226078 137.7279551
    162.8348338 141.8597938
    164.4631822 146.1155876
    166.107814 150.4990552
    167.7688921 155.0140269
    169.4465811 159.6644477
    171.1410469 164.4543811
    172.8524573 169.3880126
    174.5809819 174.4696529
    176.3267917 179.7037425
    178.0900597 185.0948548
    179.8709603 190.6477004
    181.6696699 196.3671315
    183.4863666 202.2581454
    185.3212302 208.3258898
    187.1744425 214.5756665
    189.0461869 221.0129365
    190.9366488 227.6433245
    192.8460153 234.4726243
    194.7744755 241.506803
    196.7222202 248.7520071
    198.6894424 256.2145673
    200.6763368 263.9010043
    202.6831002 271.8180345
    204.7099312 279.9725755
    206.7570305 288.3717528
    208.8246008 297.0229053
    210.9128468 305.9335925
    213.0219753 315.1116003
    215.1521951 324.5649483
    217.303717 334.3018967
    219.4767542 344.3309536
    221.6715217 354.6608822
    223.8882369 365.3007087
    226.1271193 376.25973
    228.3883905 387.5475219
    230.6722744 399.1739475
    232.9789971 411.149166
    235.3087871 423.4836409
    237.661875 436.1881502
    240.0384937 449.2737947
    242.4388787 462.7520085
    244.8632675 476.6345688
    247.3119001 490.9336058
    249.7850191 505.661614
    252.2828693 520.8314624
    254.805698 536.4564063
    257.353755 552.5500985
    259.9272926 569.1266014
    262.5265655 586.2003995
    265.1518311 603.7864115
    267.8033494 621.9000038
    270.4813829 640.5570039
    273.1861968 659.773714
    275.9180587 679.5669255
    278.6772393 699.9539332
    281.4640117 720.9525512
    284.2786518 742.5811278
    287.1214384 764.8585616
    289.9926527 787.8043184
    292.8925793 811.438448
    295.8215051 835.7816014
    298.7797201 860.8550495
    301.7675173 886.680701
    304.7851925 913.281122
    307.8330444 940.6795556
    310.9113749 968.8999423
    314.0204886 997.9669406
    317.1606935 1027.905949
    320.3323004 1058.743127
    323.5356234 1090.505421
    326.7709797 1123.220584
    330.0386895 1156.917201
    333.3390764 1191.624717
    336.6724671 1227.373459
    340.0391918 1264.194663
    343.4395837 1302.120502
    346.8739795 1341.184117
    350.3427193 1381.419641
    353.8461465 1422.86223
    357.384608 1465.548097
    360.9584541 1509.51454
    364.5680386 1554.799976
    368.213719 1601.443976
    371.8958562 1649.487295
    375.6148148 1698.971914
    379.3709629 1749.941071
    383.1646725 1802.439303
    386.9963193 1856.512482
    390.8662824 1912.207857
    394.7749453 1969.574092
    398.7226947 2028.661315
    402.7099217 2089.521155
    406.7370209 2152.206789
    410.8043911 2216.772993
    414.912435 2283.276183
    419.0615594 2351.774468
    423.252175 2422.327702
    427.4846967 2494.997533
    431.7595437 2569.847459
    436.0771391 2646.942883
    440.4379105 2726.35117
    444.8422896 2808.141705
    449.2907125 2892.385956
    453.7836196 2979.157535
    458.3214558 3068.532261
    462.9046704 3160.588229
    467.5337171 3255.405875
    472.2090543 3353.068052
    476.9311448 3453.660093
    481.7004562 3557.269896
    486.5174608 3663.987993
    491.3826354 3773.907633
    496.2964618 3887.124862
     
    #23     May 21, 2021


  4. Hmmmmm. But whatever it was, the underlying lost a ton too, right, like 45% or something crazy? Or wait, maybe not? Maybe it lost far less than this and the log thing works in reverse and absolutely brutalizes you in a down market far more than simply holding 200% (in a 2x ETF) or 300% (in a 3x ETF)?
     
    #24     May 21, 2021
  5. The underlying lost like 83%!
     
    #25     May 21, 2021

  6. Haha, ok good. What all these calculations are leading me to believe is that the drag on at least some of the leveraged funds, including TQQQ, is not that much at all, and rather than putting 100% of your money in QQQ (assuming you had a long time until retirement and want to let it ride), just put like 10% of your money in TQQQ and use the other 90% on whatever you want. Even if QQQ gets cut in half and TQQQ goes to almost zero, you are still down max 10%. AND you then have plenty of money to pile into TQQQ at that time and make the investment of a lifetime. :)
     
    #26     May 21, 2021
  7. The cost of leverage drag during a bull phase doesn't seem like much with the high performance, but in a long bear market... it's a killer!

    We've got a whole generation of stock players and money managers who have never experienced a bear market. There will be screams of despair and cries of agony when they do.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
    #27     May 21, 2021

  8. Hmmm, are you saying that you just feel it more in a bear market since in a bull market you are still making a killing and don't notice the slight drag, or are you saying that the actual "drag" increases in a bear market, i.e. the cost of getting that 3x leverage actually goes up in a bear market?
     
    #28     May 21, 2021
  9. I don't know if the expense costs for whatever leverage vehicles used actually go up, but they have to pay for it.. and it keeps expiring worthless... only to be bought again and again expiring worthless... yadayada. Those costs have an compounding negative effect too. The time it takes for a bear to run its course is a big additional negative.
     
    #29     May 21, 2021
  10. manic

    manic

    TQQQ is still in an 80% drawdown from its tech bubble peak, even though the Nasdaq is up 270%.

    That said, if you had bought it any time other than a few months during the peak of the bubble, you'd be quite profitable today.

    Buying and holding TQQQ is a low alpha strategy. You are better off using options, futures, or margin for leverage. Of course, if you want to use leverage, you would be wise to have some market timing strategy that are willing to stick to.
     
    #30     May 21, 2021