Ok, that's fair enough. I agree that a 5% drawdown is quite large on a daytrade, however I don't think it's excessive for a trailing draw over a combine period. TST uses 10% for the 10k combine, which is more than triple the percentage value of max DD in the 150k.
Anybody remember Emmett, the guy who reviews trading related businesses? A few months back I mentioned him, because of his glowing review of TST. Then he changed his mind. Finally yesterday he did kind of update the review, explaining that even 2 frozen pizzas (courtesy of TST) can't buy his affiliation anymore, (beside the $2100 cash), because they are just too much trouble. Well, he stopped the affiliation back in January, but he needed 4 months to do this update, because maybe he was busy eating pizzas: http://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/topstep-trader-update-survey/ He is asking for input at this moment and fed up with being the complaint department of TST. He also upgraded MES capital. In the original review he put them down, but apparently he has done a 180 on them: http://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/mes-capital-update/ Read both updates and decide it for yourself... He kind of forgot to change the stars in the original reviews so TST is still 4.8 and MES is only 3.8 although he says: "If you are interested in becoming a funded trader with Top Step Trader, you should put it on hold. The first step should be to attempt to become a funder trader with MES Capital. It costs nothing, and you will not be sold anything. Why spend $200 dollars a month for the opportunity to run on the Top Step hamster wheel, where nearly everyone eventually fails? Why not first thoroughly exhaust all available free options before going out of pocket? I recommend it. I should have recommended it earlier. And for that I can only apologize and try to make things right." ---------------------------------- Hey TST, I would like to mention that: 1. I do like pizza too. My favorite is the Hawaiian. 2. I can be a much better shill than Maverick ever was. So I hope you guys can get to the right conclusion, and the pizzas are on my way...
Not doing at all the same type of hours. Apples to oranges. I was a software engineer, and the only work I truly enjoyed and wasn't near-breakdown stressed was open source (not sponsored, sadly). It'd be neat to do something I enjoy just as much, for similar reasons, and also having a shot at revenue. (No, for some reason trading doesn't stress me much at all. Just some healthy adrenaline here and there.) Also here in Canada, your 1099 is taxed favorably vs regular employment (deductible expenses) and we don't have a third type of income for trading, so on that front TST's no different than trading directly. (Though I'm not commenting on TST's viability as a venue per se.)
After yesterday's post I thought, let's leave TST alone for a while, after all there is probably a free pizza coming in my way, and someone might think I am obsessed with them, as I am with free pizzas. So I started to read other reviews on Emmett's site. There were so many negative reviews that after a while I started to wonder, is there a business at all what Emmett likes? Sure enough, in one of his responses he mentioned like 4, what he had positive experiences with. One of them was oiltradinggroup.com (OTG) I kind of remembered the name from BMT, and over there the reviews were more on the negative side. OTG is a CL trading room run by Jason. Thus I went to the website to check them out... And that is where my promise of leaving TST alone ended quickly. Wouldn't you know it, but TST and OTG formed a partnership back last November and as a result, Jason is trading combines in his live trading room (as opposed to real money) while promoting TST heavily on his website and possibly driving newbies into Combines. In return TST is probably giving him free combines and probably some kind of cut from the pie, I mean pizza. It is a scratch my back and I will scratch yours friendship, everybody is happy, forget the traders. Let's not judge them for a moment, and just take a look at Jason's Combines. Again, here we are dealing with a highly experienced pro, who has been trading oil for 5+ years, running a trading room (added pressure from onlookers) and supposedly making real money too. So how did he do it? Well, his first 150K Combine started on Nov 18th last year. He ended up with 1K profits trading only 2 contracts. Now let's not judge the wisdom of doing a 150K Combine and trading only 2 cars, because that is just no wise at all. http://www.oiltradinggroup.com/2016/01/04/150k-combine-week-4-start-date-11-19-2015/ If we analyze the results, he was actually up 4K until the last day of the Combine (good for you Jason), when he took a 2.9K loss, thus eliminating 75% of his profits. Holiday trading and such... Now his next 150K Combine in January ended much better, with a 11.5K profit, but as we know it, the devil is in the details: http://www.oiltradinggroup.com/2016...art-date-1-4-2016-combine-objective-achieved/ After a quick look, we can see that he was actually in the red on his last day and took a Hail Mary pass or 2, and won 13.2K!! All in all, he didn't pass those combines, so if you are a newbie reading this, ask yourself what your chances are, if this seasoned pro failed twice.... Lately Jason has switched to the 50K Combines due to costumers' request. He says 10 of his traders passed the Combine, as usual, no word on getting paychecks though. He does promote the OTG/TST combo, because, well that is what makes money for both firms... If you ever wondered, that combo will cost you around 100 pizzas, I mean $500 + $165 (using the 50K Combine)
I urge you to power down and seek urgent medical attention. Its clear you have issues that you are projecting onto TST. Its not for everyone and what you are doing is not healthy.
Let's take a look of the "complaints" and see if any of them have genuine merit: Its a hamster wheel I thought that once I passed the combine, I would receive a trading account that was identical to the combine I didnt know that I had to pay the exchange $85 to $200 a month in “professional” exchange fee’s Nobody told me about the Trader Prep Period They only give you 10 days to make money I wasted money on a TopStep Trader recommended mentor They intentionally confuse to keep collecting monthly combine fee’s "Its a hamster wheel" Where does it state that the combine is "easy" to pass, lol. The smaller combines (in my opinion) are NOT designed to make you money in the live account, given the 10 day rule. You simply won't have built up enough equity. To avoid the "hamster wheel" one may want to consider the smaller combines for training purposes only, and then take the 100k/150k combines only when ready. The larger combines at least provide higher odds of generating enough equity. "I thought that once I passed the combine, I would receive a trading account that was identical to the combine" Apparently, traders who make this complaint have a deficit in their ability to conduct proper due diligence (and obviously haven't read this thread on ET or the BMT site). If you look at the TST site itself, then you will find ALL of the parameters spelled out in the FAQ's and within the links to the rules! Obviously, the live account is NOT the same as the combine account, given the added rules. "I didn't know that I had to pay the exchange $85 to $200 a month in 'professional' exchange fees" Here is what the site says: "Funded Traders are responsible for the data fee cost charged by the exchange." However, I think TST could have more transparency with this fee, especially for those who choose to trade contracts on multiple exchanges. "Nobody told me about the Trader Prep Period" Why does anyone have to "tell you" about it, lol! Again, this is the fault of the trader who fails to conduct proper due diligence. The rules are CLEARLY spelled out on "Step 2" of the funding program on the TST site. "They only give you 10 days to make money" Ok, I agree this is a legitimate complaint. Yes, the "10 day" rule is quite restrictive. The combine is continuous, but the live account only allows for the equity build up over 10 days. This IS the biggest drawback in the TST program, and has been discussed extensively on ET and the BMT site. There was a trader from Taiwan who took six months to pass the combine, but if you reviewed his stats, he was very consistent. He never hit the daily draw, and stayed away from the max draw. In my opinion, adhering to the TST combine rules for SIX STRAIGHT MONTHS is extremely difficult, if not impossible. Most traders posting here couldn't do it (myself included). But this particular trader did. However, given the 10 day rule, his average equity balance would have been less than $200 in his live account. My guess is he blew up the live account, because $200 is a PIKER account, and you cannot make money in a highly leveraged environment as a piker. He had several days in the combine where he lost $200, however he was still able to generate the $1,500 required to pass the combine, trading part time at night while working full time. TST's 10 day rule means even though he had potential, he would get "kicked back to the combine" much sooner, and thus trading a "funded" account is meaningless. "I wasted money on a TopStep Trader recommended mentor" Education isn't mandatory, it's an option, and of course subject to one's opinion. "They intentionally confuse to keep collecting monthly combine fees" TST has changed its rules from time to time, however the rules have been mostly in favor of the trader. Besides, if you simply read the FAQ's, the rules are spelled out. If there is still "confusion" then why not just ask? Perhaps traders who approach the TST model have difficulty separating fantasy from reality. Prop shop equity traders think they will turn a $5,000 account with 20x bp into a sustainable monthly income stream. An AMP customer may think placing a $500 minimum account balance to trade 1 lot of ES will make him rich. He may not have conducted the basic research that 1 lot of ES is equivalent to trading 500 shares of SPY. Under normal market conditions, SPY has an ATR of $2, so a daily swing of 500 shares will move your P&L by $1,000. Obviously, $500 is not enough, except to attract dreamers who will end up churning commission. TST suggests (by the combine metrics) that it will take $10,000 of EQUITY, not margin, not buying power, but EQUITY to trade ONE lot of whatever product you choose. This is directly correlated to the daily draw allowance of 1.6% to 3% of the simulated funds. So using their own rules as a guide, if it takes $10k of EQUITY to trade ONE lot, then how do you expect to make any significant gains, especially when you only have 10 days to build up your equity from the "$0" starting balance in the live account? Apparently nobody on Emmett's site asked another math question: "why does the 10k 'piker' combine allow for a 10% trailing draw, whereby the largest 150k 'big boy' combine which is much more difficult to trade, has a 3% trailing draw?" If you simply conduct proper due diligence, then it's reasonable to conclude that the combine offers a way to learn the process of examining your strengths and weakness(es) as a trader in a real time simulated environment with strict risk parameters. The key is to then find ways to improve your stats. THAT is the true value of the combine, where the opportunity cost is the "blow up" of your own retail account.
Ok, since you brought up his stats, I took a look. Here's my response: I disagree with your notion that it isn't "wise" to trade "only 2 cars" in the 150k combine. Remember, the LIVE account metrics are what matter, not the combine metrics. Since a 3 lot trade is the MAXIMUM allowable cars to start in the live account, the 2 lot approach in the combine is appropriate to start, since it's within the rules of the LIVE account. His December combine was actually quite good, with the exception of Dec 10 and Dec 18, where his stats suffered. I don't agree with his trade on Dec 18th, where he obviously was over leveraged and nearly "blew up" the combine. However, as you said, he was already up 4k, and thus if it was a live account, he's allowed 10 max lots. I just think the risk vs. reward was probably not the best, especially to go that size. I don't blame the guy for starting a new combine in January. In fact, I was in a 150k in the latter part of last year. I was down minus $3k, before I traded out of a jam and ended up net $1,100 (similar to Jason's balance in December). I cancelled the combine because I was going on vacation and didn't want to bring my laptop over the holidays or pay the $375 fee. I asked TST if I could "hold" the combine and they said I would either have to cancel it or pay the next month's fee, so I chose to cancel. I have yet to restart however I'll eventually trade the 150k again at some point, perhaps over the summer. Since other traders brought up Savius and MES, it's probably worth looking into those firms as well, although I still think TST has more infrastructure in place. When reviewing all these stats, I sense there is a common theme (which includes my own stats): 1. Trading size that exceeds the metrics of the live account (this is key and something I will work diligently on during the next combine) 2. Not being more selective on trades 3. Having too much variance on P&L (i.e. a very choppy equity curve) Perhaps the trader you quoted will post better stats on the 50k, however I don't see the logic of trading it just because of "customer requests" but that's just my opinion.
In his case it is, because he could have just used the 30K. Not that he is paying for it though. Most likely he was trying to help people in his room and not using too many cars. Earlier he had a Combine where he made 41K, so using 2 cars only makes sense if it was for his costumers. Anyhow he is not doing combines because he wants to be a backed trader. He does them because: 1. He uses the sim as a track record for his business. Last year he had a 15K real account for a few months, but I guess didn't do well... 2. He has an affiliation with TST, thus driving business towards them. He switched to the 50K most likely because that is what most Combiners use, so he is accommodating them. Strangely February and March records are missing...
Just tried to get a simple answer to a simple question from OTG. Very cagy.... OTG chat. Jessica: Hello, thanks for contacting The Oil Trading Group. My name is Jessica, may I have your name? You: Ian Jessica: Hi, Ian. How may I help you? You: What are your monthly subscriptions Jessica: I see. One of our specialists can discuss this in greater detail and provide you with pricing, etc. As we proceed further, may I have your phone number and email to better assist you? You: why can't you tell me the subscriptions now Jessica: I understand you are trying to get an answer right now, however, my role here is to understand your need and pass your information to one of our representatives to better help you. May I have someone who can answer all of your questions get back to you? You: No I just want a simple answer to a simple question. Thanks Jessica: Alright. For further assistance you can reach us at 214.699.9169 ,Info@OilTradingGroup.com Jessica: Is there anything else I can help you with? You: Email... loooppy99@gmail.com Jessica: Thank you. Jessica: I have sent your information to our office, and you will be contacted during our regular business hours, if we are able to assist you. Is there anything else I can help you with? You: Thanks Jessica: Thank you for contacting The Oil Trading Group. Draw your own conclusions
I mentioned this earlier but OTG costs $500 monthly (with 3 months minimum), but you also get a T-shirt saying: "I got to watch Jason sim trading a Combine!" If you want to know more about the room, read the comment section on Emmett's site, at the original review. http://www.tradingschools.org/reviews/oil-trading-group-review/ There is an update though* and BMT also has a review thread on them... *Best part: "Jason responded to my email by saying, “I pushed yet another newbie, know nothing trader through the merciless meat grinder of the TopStepTrader combine, how many of your other trading guru’s can say the same?”. What could I say."