Quote from CoolTraderDude: Well it's good to see that you're not advertising for them...! Here's a question to Patak... Is Maverick one of your owners or affiliated with you in any way...? CooTraderDude- NO not in anyway. The guy knows our business model and does his due diligence to review and dig into us (not speculate). I would say that he is making our job a bit easier though.. so for that I would buy him a beer. mp
Quote from Lucias: Actually.. my analysis was wrong. You're not really given $800 risk capital because you do essentially a 50/50 split (60/40 at lowest level unless you spend even more for coaching, etc). So let's look at this to pass the minimum objective combine $175 Combine Fee Risked $825 Return on Risk But then we have to take reduce that for splits... take 60% of it and you get $495 What this means is that a trader only needs to come up with $495 to have the same risk capital that TST/PTK awards at lowest funding level (+$500 non risk money for intraday margin + find any broker that will allow you to open a sub 5k account futures account which is not likely because its ludicrious). If you get a $500 risk cap at TST/PTK then trading on own it is equivalent to $300 risk cap... same concept.. only need to make $180 on own for $300/day equivalent at PTK. The concept is good. But the math just doens't work. Daily risk limit too... risk capital given too small... objectives too high. I will continue to monitor for future improvements but righ tnow.. just isn't worth the combine fee or time. I'd dare say lowest combine is barely worth it for free. Lucias- I think there is a disconnect in our communication.. I want to try and clear this up.. If you enter the 10 Day $30,000 account size, with max position 3, $500 Loss limit, you place a $160 deposit.. If you complete this Combine objective this $160 gets returned to you. Now it is free (a risk free opportunity for you). Now you are going live on a funded account (with PTP). If you start producing live your account builds. Your mental capital builds and we hope you continue to move forward making money. As you build your account your max position can be increased as well as your daily loss limit, if you so request. On the negative side if you start off and initially loss give or take twice your loss limit or $1,000 you get sent back to the Combine to work things out. Point I want to make it start off nice and slow... $100 here a $100 there. Wait for high probability set ups... doing this will help SLOWLY build your account but as you slowly build your account you slowly begin to build confidence in your ability.. as you do this you are moving forward and growing as a trader. NOT and easy feat but achievable. I hope I sorta cleared that up.. Let me know if I missed your question entirely. mp __________________ TopstepTrader is structured to educate, develop and fund traders. Learn more: http://www.topsteptrader.com/. Questions? Contact us: scouting@topsteptrader.com or +1-312-252-9858. My TST profile: http://www.topsteptrader.com/ViewProfile/NEBRASKA/0/p/0
Quote from Lucias: Thanks Michael for answering my questions. I think it is a good thing that you don't charge previous traders who pass the combine a fee. However, its not really true that at the lowest level that you fund traders with $1,000. The trader risks almost $200 for the opportunity. He can't guarantee that he'll be profitable at the end of the month. As such, he could lose that money and it is at risk. He only needs to come up with $800 more for same as if he passed the combine. Maverick, I have monitored many systems/traders and results at anything less then 3 months appears mostly random to me. But, if the rules are designed properly then a couple months could be useful. Also, you've seen they only give you 2x the daily risk limit and you've been adament in the past that a trader should only risk 2% of his capital on a day trade. I've tried to show you that the 2% risk rule isn't really true. For my day trades, I just use a max risk limit -- like TST/PTK and I find that works well. I like to keep this max risk below 7%. When I started, I had to have my max risk at like 10%/day but because my account has increased.. I'm only running a bit over 4% now. This is very reasonable level. 50% is not reasonable. The reality is that good traders aren't going to spend 6 months trading on a simulator unless they have the chance to be funded at a significant level. The opportunity cost is too high. Also, when one understands the math then one will see that as the combine is designed today that it is simply easier to make money by taking own capital to the market. Let's imagine it takes 4x to pass a combine (not unrealistic), that's $200*4 = $800. So you are paying in the risk cap you get back. Its not a good deal as it is designed. If a trader makes 4k in combine, he should be funded with 4k. The reality is also that TST/PTK is not funding traders at a level where they can make a living. Michael has confirmed already that he doens't have even 12 traders who cleared 30k. I believe this is because the program doesnt give one enough capital/risk to be successful. I don't see this as being very worthwhile. I will continue to monitor the program though, and if the situation changes then will consider the combine. But, as as structured today it is too much risk for too little gain. Lucias.. The trader receives the TopstepTrader Combine deposit back when they get selected for funding at Patak Trading Partners. Also we need to understand that the Combine is a learning and developing tool for traders rather then being in the live market, while also serving as a recruiting tool for those who can meet the objective. Lastly we don't use % risk. We use flat numbers that make sense. As there were time I traded and other traders around me traded where we never talk about how much we can lose in a day as a percentage of what we had in our accounts. I knew that when I first start I was taught don't lose over $300 a day if you can't average $300 a day.. Then as I grew my daily loss limit grew as my daily average grew. It is a different way of looking at things but there was times when my trading account would have $10k in it and times I had $260k in it (i would bring it back to $20k at the end of each month on withdraws).. I would and other trades did the same.. would not deviate away from what made them money each day and that was adhering to a loss limit that told them to shut it down your done, having strong discipline. This was never tied to a percentage of the account.. Just how we view it here. mp
Quote from CoolTraderDude: Director of Scouting for TST... What is your position at Patak Trading...? He probably won't answer this... Cooltraderdude- I am the Director of Scouting at TopstepTrader and President of Patak Trading Partners. We have investors. I have an interest in both companies. That is all need to disclose. Now lets move on and focus on questions about an opportunity that is either right for you or not. mp
Quote from Lucias: Mav, I'm not sure where you get all these ideas: yes I do send you many PMs but perhaps you read them sloppily. I don't recall ever to admiting to self destructing but it doesn't matter because your argument is about self control. As an aside, I've always been rather succcesful actually. I have learned the value in having a max risk limit and do obide by that. A lot of your assumptions are flat out wrong.. as I said, I routinely slow down and take a break when I believe I am losing more then usual. As stated: your argument is about self control and not relevant to the mathematics of the game. The highest TST/PTK combine costs $400.. what's to say that a combine tryout won't lose control and blow whatever capital he has trying to pass... maybe its $4,000 or $5,000. I've already shown that right now TST/PTK is a game, not a good game for the tryout, and not a serious opportunity. However, should they change this in the future then I'm willing to revise my assesment. As, I'm confident in my assesment this will be my last post on the matter. Lucias- I respect your opinion. We are looking for those that can play the game. The game of trading. Which is a vicious game that can wipe you completely out. Losing big money trying to learn this game in the live market has taken many traders lives. What we off is a slow approach to learning it in a safe environment and giving the time you need to develop into a trader you are confident in and that is rooted in discipline. We have many tools that we offer for you to use while you DEVELOP, whether you are looking for funding or simply developing your trading. We are an option and an opportunity. There is always the alternative to funding your own account, learning in a live market with real money. That is the route I initially did and lost $90k when I first started. If this option was available, yes I still would have funded myself and given it a shot but instead of blowing out 3 $30k accounts it would have been more like one. mp
Quote from Maverick74: Michael, I'm curious, of the guys who have been funded this year, how many of them are trading CL vs ES as their main product? Maverick74- A majority are CL and ES. Our top three most popular products are CL, ES, 6e. mp
Quote from traderCND: I have sent the following email to MarketRegOutreach@cmegroup.com: I would like to make a complaint against Patak Trading Partners. According to CME Rule 106.H. Corporate Membership January 2010, a CME Rule 106.H. Trading Member "May not hold themselves out as members of the Exchange." However, on their website http://www.pataktradingpartners.com: 1. They clearly have CME logo with words "Member of the CME Group" 2. On Home Page have the text: "Patak Trading Partners is a boutique proprietary trading firm and member of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, based in Chicago, Illinois" 3. Also on Home Page they have the text: "Since we are a member firm of the CME Group, our traders benefit from direct clearing relationships, a cutting edge trading platform, and the capital required to manage a trading account." 4 On this website, Michael Patek posted" "http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=248456&perpage=6&pagenumber=37" : "Additionally, Patak Trading Partners, LLC is a member firm of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. Our registration information information can be found here: http://www.cmegroup.com/company/mem...day_mailing.pdf" Can you please look into this. Thank You, traderCND- Appreciate you looking into that for us. Your email went to market reg. They do not handle that type of stuff as it is not a market regulations type of an issue. You will need to send it to the membership audit department. Here is the CME switchboard number to get their email or contact them directly: 312-435-3500 . Contact Ellen over there. She handles membership review and knows us. They are really helpful and nice people. She will inform you that we are well within the rules in how we hold ourselves. Again I do appreciate you taking the time to thoroughly review TST and PTP. mp __________________ TopstepTrader is structured to educate, develop and fund traders. Learn more: http://www.topsteptrader.com/. Questions? Contact us: scouting@topsteptrader.com or +1-312-252-9858 . My TST profile: http://www.topsteptrader.com/ViewProfile/NEBRASKA/0/p/0
Michael, It seems that you are running away from my questions! I already asked you these questions in the other thread at least 2 times. You have still not answered them. So, please answer: Your website clearly mentions the rules of what it takes to go from combine to live. However, there is no mention of what has been the historical passing rates. This information is important to potential traders to better gauge their chances of moving from combines to live trading. So, to help remove some of the doubts, please give "numbers" and not your marketing pitch, for the following questions: 1) Total number of traders that have participated in combines, starting from TST inception till today. 2) Total number of traders who have ever been live, from TST inception till today. 3) Total number of live traders who have made more than 20k till today, in their live account. 4) Total number of live traders who have made more than 10k till today, in their live account. 5) Total number of live traders who have made more than 5k till today, in their live account.
Quote from gmst: I had a quick look at Patak around a month ago, when one ET friend first mentioned it. I then thought performance criteria is way too strict. But then browsing the Patak Trading thread, I saw Maverick74 really siding with Patak. I respect Maverick a lot and so I thought maybe I have missed something since Maverick is obviously way too experienced (so he must be right) and I became neutral in my views about Patak. Sometime this week, my ET friend mailed me saying he is going to join Patak and clearly there was conviction in his writing. That prompted me to think that I have really screwed up in my evaluation of Patak and I ought to take a relook with a fresh mind. After spending 2 hrs on its website and 2 hrs doing follow-up analysis to see if I should also join a combine and get funded, I have concluded that it is an 'elaborate' scheme to take money out of traders pockets. Obviously, Maverick is a very smart guy and the way he has been recommending Patak, now it is clear to me that he is getting paid by Patak for promotion as a tout or maybe he is a promoter of Patak himself. It saddens me to see that Maverick is out there to fool people since following his ACD thread, I used to think Maverick is a very good trader and I had very high regards for him. Today also, I don't have anything personal against Maverick - as I think he is just trying to make a quick buck by fooling people (most sellers of trading services do this and buyer beware is an oft-repeated proverb). But, now I seriously wonder how much money Maverick makes from his trading alone?!! Because if he is making 7 figures from his trading, he will never allow himself to do such a dishonorable thing by being part of such a group which is out there to outright fool people. Admittedly after this not so useful introductory post, in my next series of posts, I will write how I arrived at my conclusions about Patak. Hello everyone, I wanted to jump on this thread to clear some things up and get the accurate information out there about TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners. First, I want to quickly address that Maverick is NOT on payroll or compensated in any way. I do not know Maverick, although from what I have read it sounds like he has a strong understanding of the trading industry, how to be successful as a trader, and the reasoning for starting a trading group like we have. Now to the main points that began this thread: gmst- many traders (including myself for my first three years) struggle in this business and lose a large amount of their capital (personally $90k) along the learning curve to building a consistent, profitable, disciplined trading methodology. This business is very difficult to learn and develop in, as to do this you must have real money on the line. We created TopstepTrader to soften the blow and give traders time to develop profitable strategies in a simulated environment where you are held accountable for your actions. Now to quickly answer your initial posts: We do not encourage our recruits or funded traders to trade more. We actually encourage them to trade less, and wait for market alignment and recognize market state before initiating a trade. Patience is something we push, as patience helps build discipline, and discipline helps you stay in the game. For funded traders, there are no platform or desk fees. Additionally, we cover platform costs, access to our Squawk Radio and Breaking News Service, and provide funded traders with a professional trading coach. Our business model is not centered around making money on commissions. We make money when our traders make money. Next, we do not encourage scalping. We encourage capital preservation, knowing when to shut it down and staying disciplined while you trade. We do not require people trade any certain way. Our evaluation criteria looks for disciplined traders regardless of trading strategy or style. Also, if people do not feel their trading style fits into our standard evaluation criteria, they are able to choose their own Combine objective. Lastly, the points or RULES you address in our trading plan that funded traders must follow, are sound discipline principles all traders should follow. Lets remember if someone is looking for funding, they may be struggling in areas that are keeping them from producing. We try to break bad habits and instill good, sound discipline through repetition. Much like sports, how practice makes permanent. To end, we are an OPTION or an ALTERNATIVE for traders.. Traders should have options or alternatives to learn or develop rather than just put money with a brokerage or clearing firm. Those who come to our program understand my points above and understand that you must be accountable for your actions if you ever plan on moving forward in this business. I am on our Squawk Radio broadcast every Tuesday and Thursday at 12 CST. ANYONE is welcome to ask us ANY question about why we do what we do, etc. I will be in this forum from time to time, as will a couple members of our Scout Team. We are all available to clear up any confusion or answer any questions. TopstepTrader is a new concept that many may not completely understand at first glance. That is completely understandable. Therefore we are transparent and we do answer questions that help people move forward in this industry. Finally, to get some pressure off of Maverick, I have started a new thread to answer any questions anyone has about TopstepTrader or Patak Trading Partners. http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...threadid=248456 Michael Patak CEO & Director of Scouting TST chatroom âNebraskaâ
Quote from gmst: Hello! Maverick posted earlier in this thread: "And as far as I know, Michael still trades on the floor of the CBOT in the Dow futures pit. His acronym is PTK. He's been down there for over 10 years. Coincidentally, I use to trade in that pit as well back in the day." A bit odd that you don't know who Maverick is! But that is not the point. You don't have to respond to this. Lets get to the point. What is the basis for your business model? It is my understanding that it is partnering with successful traders on a profit split basis? If yes, you should get them lowest comms possible. The money you are making from Combines is enough for all the operational expenses. Don't you agree? If you don't agree, kindly provide some numbers. That will help assuage doubts. Your rules "clearly" are designed to promote scalping. I demonstrated this using numbers in my post#2 and post#3 on this thread. I "request" you to kindly read those posts with care and correct me using numbers. Because your words lose their weight, when numbers are pointing otherwise. Looking forward to a healthy conversation! Cheers. Good questions.. Let me first address Maverick and the trading floor. There 3 thousand or more (give or take) traders on the floor. I've been in the DOW pit for over 10 years. Traders on the floor know people by their badge... badge acronyms are either 3 or 4 characters max.. So very slim chance I would know Maverick as I knew everyone by their badge and that was typically on people I traded with in the DOW. gmst- What is the basis for your business model? MP- To educate, develop and financially back traders ready to trade TODAYS market. If you are considering a career in trading, looking to increase your market and self knowledge or just putting the final tweaks on your strategy we want you with us. We are talent scouts for trading. gmst- It is my understanding that it is partnering with successful traders on a profit split basis? If yes, you should get them lowest comms possible. Yes this is what we are doing. This is a prove it business. Once you start profiting doors open with us. Combine and Live traders trade very very light. You earn your opportunity for doors to open here it is not given to you. If you are trading an excessive amount and looking for less comm, we will look into getting membership rates for your account. This is a similar model as many if not all prop firms here in Chicago. gmst- The money you are making from Combines is enough for all the operational expenses. Don't you agree? If you don't agree, kindly provide some numbers. That will help assuage doubts. The Combine has a fully refundable deposit. This holds all recruits accountable for their actions and adds skin in the game for them to take it serious while gaining the closest feel to trading a live market like they would in their personal account. Those in the Combine that complete the requirements found here: http://www.topsteptrader.com/deposit are given the opportunity to receive a full refund (and go their merry way at absouletly no cost to them) or roll their deposit over to a new Combine and use the expereince from the prior Combine to develop and move themselves forward to a profitable trading stategy/methodology. gmst- Your rules "clearly" are designed to promote scalping. I demonstrated this using numbers in my post#2 and post#3 on this thread. I "request" you to kindly read those posts with care and correct me using numbers. Because your words lose their weight, when numbers are pointing otherwise. Our rules are not rules but discipline principles we want our traders following and what we have seen works for successfully trader. We are on the trading floor. The scouts and traders apart of our company have many years of experience in seeing what works for trading and what doesnât. This does not encourage scalping. I hope that clears it up a bit. I am open to further discussion/questions. Michael