TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Easy to read QUESTIONS and ANSWERS

wrbtrader · Aug 25, 2013

Quote from Maverick74:

It's all disclosed WRB. They have been doing this since day one and when Michael was actively posting here, he mentioned it several times...
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Yes, I know it is disclosed but what I'm trying to find out is when is such disclosed....before registration or after registration for the combine ???

Therefore, I will assume that when you said its all disclosed, such occurs before one registers before the combine.

Quote from Maverick74:

...Anyway, in typical ET fashion, the focus moves away from self and moves towards that outside of self. We always look for somewhere else to shift the blame. It can't possibly be us. It has to be the broker, the market, the HFT's, the Fed, the wife, the dog, the neighbors, their broadband cable connection, etc. The trader on ET rarely ever owns up to their shortfalls. All TST is doing is for a fee, they are providing a "mirror" that reveals things that most people don't want to see...
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Ain't that the truth. Trading itself will expose any mental weakness someone has. I've done my share of playing the blame game early in my trading career...wake up the next day and I still saw me. To be a good trader, it will always point back to oneself.

Maverick74 · Aug 25, 2013

Quote from wrbtrader:

Yes, I know it is disclosed but what I'm trying to find out is when is such disclosed....before registration or after registration for the combine ???

Therefore, I will assume that when you said its all disclosed, such occurs before one registers before the combine.

Ain't that the truth. Trading itself will expose any mental weakness someone has. I've done my share of playing the blame game early in my trading career...wake up the next day and I still saw me.
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It's disclosed "before" but to be fair, like a lot of stuff on their site, it's somewhat ambiguous. I agree and I've said this before, it would serve them better to write stuff out as if they were talking to a 5 year old. They often use broad language that can be interpreted many different ways. I think that should be in bigger print. And it might even help if they spent some time showing guys how that process works. I know when Michael does the live Q&A's he does address that stuff but many people don't see those. It's all there.

volente_00 · Aug 25, 2013

Quote from Pekelo:

Once you are Live, the hours are different then when you did the Combine
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Where is this disclosed on the website ?

And if what you are saying is true then what the hell is the point of misleading combine participants ?

Tonkadad · Aug 25, 2013

Quote from Maverick74:

....Guys on ET all think trading is about having the right "strategy" or "predicting" moves or "making calls". You see this on thread after thread after thread. That is NOT what trading is about. Trading is about standing in the middle of the intersection of risk and not getting hit. You have to take risk to make money, but yet you have to be able to deal with the consequences of taking risks. It's a catch 22. It matters not what moving avg cross over you are using or what your "call" is today on the spoos being up or down. It matters can you take the heat. Can you take the heat of managing a winner and not getting out too soon. Can you take the heat of being in a losing trader or being in a draw down. Most guys can't. But they convince themselves the reason they are not making money is because they are using the wrong moving avg.

I think you will see another firm try to copy this model but I think someone will do what I'm suggesting and take the backing side of it out and instead create an environment that is both competitive and educational and yet still offer rewards for the trader to do well. I completely disagree with Austin that the combine is for established traders unless they want to practice trading a market they never traded before, like say Gold. TST really offers the most value for newbies who come on ET and read about all these ET billionaires that net 100 ticks a day in the spoos and live this lavish lifestyle. Just read the threads here and you'll see how these guys think. They think it's oh so easy. And people can complain about the rules all they want but you know what's killing most guys in the combine? It's not the p&l requirement or the duration or the % winners, it's the losses. It's hitting the daily stop or the max peak to trough draw down. And that is a function of discipline. I think TST has really showed guys just how hard this business is. I saw it first hand at the various prop firms I traded for. I got to see the p&l of traders at my firm. I got access to things most guys will never see. So my perspective on things is framed by that knowledge.

Anyway, in typical ET fashion, the focus moves away from self and moves towards that outside of self. We always look for somewhere else to shift the blame. It can't possibly be us. It has to be the broker, the market, the HFT's, the Fed, the wife, the dog, the neighbors, their broadband cable connection, etc. The trader on ET rarely ever owns up to their shortfalls. All TST is doing is for a fee, they are providing a "mirror" that reveals things that most people don't want to see.
More...

The first thing that comes to mind after reading your post is OUCH!

The second thing is EXCELLENT post.

The third thing TRUTH.

Pekelo · Aug 25, 2013

Quote from volente_00:

Where is this disclosed on the website ?

And if what you are saying is true then what the hell is the point of misleading combine participants ?
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1. Ask Mav, he is the TST "expert". In the Combine you can trade overnight, junior live traders can only start at 7 am. (there may be some exceptions) Probably because they are being monitored, and who wants to monitor someone 2 am Chicago time?*

2. Exactly my point.

*unless they actually want their traders to make money

sellindexvol66 · Aug 25, 2013

Quote from Maverick74:

It's all disclosed WRB. They have been doing this since day one and when Michael was actively posting here, he mentioned it several times. BTW, Pekelo is wrong, it's not a 2nd combine you have to pass. In fact, there is no p&l requirement even. I'll try to explain what I believe it is in my opinion of course. Many posters here, especially the pekelo's of the world were complaining why would TST back a buy that simply got lucky on the combine in other words, they did nothing for 9 days then threw a hail mary the last day and had a big up day and they passed the combine. Believe it or not, guys like Pekelo actually were AGAINST this behavior. So the way TST would deal with that since they couldn't just reneg and say, we're not backing you even though we know you got lucky, they make you go through a one or two week preparation period where they give you a metric, usually it's just one, to follow. It's usually something you were weak on before. That's why they remove the p&l requirement in this phase and focus just on this weakness. Say for example, you never hit the daily stop but boy did you get close 3 different times. So they might have you trade for a week and cut the daily stop in half. Again, there is no p&l pressure but they just want to see you work on your weak spot.

THIS is the one part of the combine I actually fully support. I was on these threads a year saying one of the big problems with the combine is that guys are not really trying to become good traders, they are simply trying to "win". The goal here is not to "win" the combine, the goal here is to actually become a consistently profitable trader. But most guys here will admit they their focus was trying to game the rules so they could "win". Well, this preparation phase kind of weeds out those that were simply gaming the rules. It doesn't cost you anything and no performance outcome will force you back to the regular combine.

Think of it this way, if you can't pass that little preparation phase, do you really think you should be trading? I mean honestly?

If you go back on the old threads I made a lot of suggestions on how TST could be better and how I would do it if I was running such a combine. Now that a year has gone by, I actually have a different point of view now. See, what I always said and what I truly believe is that the combine is really the best thing to come along for "new" traders. But NOT to get backing. The whole backing thing I believe puts the totally new trader in the wrong mindset. It would be like having an NFL combine for us middle aged guys on ET saying if we sign up for this physical training workshop, those that pass the workshop will get a tryout for an NFL football team. Well, that's wonderful but the fact of the matter is, no one on here is going to play in the NFL by simply doing a workshop and it might force guys to go about the training all wrong.

What I would do now is this:

I would create a combine with the pitch that the purpose is to have you work on your trading skills in a competitive and challenging environment. Instead of backing, I would give out prizes. Say a trip to Hawaii, or tickets to the superbowl or even just a night out on the town. One, this would would be enough to justify guys spending the money to do this. Two, they would set up goals for themselves that would lead them towards trading their own account with their own rules. Yet at the same time, the combine would allow them to build their discipline and their skills in an environment where they don't blow their life savings.

Now you might say, and it has been said 1000 times, then why not just do a free sim on Ninja? Because the one key ingredient ALL these guys are lacking is personal discipline. A free sim is not going to give you that. You need to have some skin in the game. It needs to be competitive. I can't tell you how many guys at my old prop firm did the old ninja sim thing for a month or two and did very well. Then started with real money and lost everything. The problem was not their trading, but their emotions. Losing on a sim might make you upset, but losing real money does bad things to people. What would inevitably happen is they would have one bad day with real money and suddenly all hell would break loose trying to get it back. That would NEVER happen on a sim.

This is why traders often resort to becoming option sellers. Because they can't handle losing money so they do something they think is safe and that will bring in consistent money. Losing money is something 95% of people simply cannot deal with it. Yet it's absolutely critical that not only you have the ability to handle that, but you have to thrive in that environment and still make the best decisions even during draw downs. TST is able to replicate that with the combine fees. You see this very clearly when guys get off to a bad start and they start getting reckless to "make it back". That is EXACTLY what they need to fix in the real world. THAT is what I saw at my prop firm that ruined guys. THAT does NOT exist on a free ninja sim.

Guys on ET all think trading is about having the right "strategy" or "predicting" moves or "making calls". You see this on thread after thread after thread. That is NOT what trading is about. Trading is about standing in the middle of the intersection of risk and not getting hit. You have to take risk to make money, but yet you have to be able to deal with the consequences of taking risks. It's a catch 22. It matters not what moving avg cross over you are using or what your "call" is today on the spoos being up or down. It matters can you take the heat. Can you take the heat of managing a winner and not getting out too soon. Can you take the heat of being in a losing trader or being in a draw down. Most guys can't. But they convince themselves the reason they are not making money is because they are using the wrong moving avg.

I think you will see another firm try to copy this model but I think someone will do what I'm suggesting and take the backing side of it out and instead create an environment that is both competitive and educational and yet still offer rewards for the trader to do well. I completely disagree with Austin that the combine is for established traders unless they want to practice trading a market they never traded before, like say Gold. TST really offers the most value for newbies who come on ET and read about all these ET billionaires that net 100 ticks a day in the spoos and live this lavish lifestyle. Just read the threads here and you'll see how these guys think. They think it's oh so easy. And people can complain about the rules all they want but you know what's killing most guys in the combine? It's not the p&l requirement or the duration or the % winners, it's the losses. It's hitting the daily stop or the max peak to trough draw down. And that is a function of discipline. I think TST has really showed guys just how hard this business is. I saw it first hand at the various prop firms I traded for. I got to see the p&l of traders at my firm. I got access to things most guys will never see. So my perspective on things is framed by that knowledge.

Anyway, in typical ET fashion, the focus moves away from self and moves towards that outside of self. We always look for somewhere else to shift the blame. It can't possibly be us. It has to be the broker, the market, the HFT's, the Fed, the wife, the dog, the neighbors, their broadband cable connection, etc. The trader on ET rarely ever owns up to their shortfalls. All TST is doing is for a fee, they are providing a "mirror" that reveals things that most people don't want to see.
More...

You made a remark that if some guys just followed that ACD thing instead of the usual bravado..swing for fences..far more success would be the outcome..if memory serves me correct.

I could not agree more.

I myself have said trading success as any success comes from excessive hard work...I do not think 95% of the et guys are willing to spend the time to "see" things that inevitability comes from 24/7 work.

rawman74 · Aug 25, 2013

my ltp had a profit target of $1500 I made $3000

Pekelo · Aug 26, 2013

Quote from rawman74:

my ltp had a profit target of $1500 I made $3000
More...

You don't get bonus cookies for overshooting the sim target, but congrats. I like your trading style. So how do you feel personally that your style is perfect for piggybacking and they might make extra money using your signals?? (you don't care, pisses you off, would like to get more profitshare, etc.)

bigarrow · Aug 26, 2013

Is anyone making any money trading with tst are they making more than a paycheck? How many of their coached funded traders are pulling down 100 thousand or more a year? These are the questions that should be asked instead of the rules of the game. Looks to me that if their coached funded traders are successful then this would be a group you'd want to be with and if they aren't then you wouldn't want to be with them.

rawman74 · Aug 26, 2013

the thought of them piggybacking me has occurred to me but Patak is the only game in town for a poor boy like me plus I've been on a cold streak recently anyway