Quote from Lucias: Also, when the trader is sent back to the combine after trading live, do they have to pay for the combine again or is it free for 1x or forever for them? There is no additional fee for traders who are moved back to the Combine after being taken live. The Scout Team acknowledges that circumstantial events could cause a funded trader to be taken off of an account. This in no way means that an individual's funded opportunity is over. When entering into this relationship, we want the trader to understand our willingness to stake them as well as continually provide them an opportunity to earn the funded account back at NO expense. Should a trader who has been selected for a funded account be sent back to a Combine, ALL deposit requirements for future Combine are waived.
Quote from t0pd0g: I think these are some relevant questions that have purposely not been answered. Can someone at TsT please answer. I am sorry guys. We do not give out info on the owners or investors in TopstepTrader or Patak Trading Partners. mp
Quote from ScalperJoe: I noticed there are two ways to join a Combine, with or without a paid membership. The membership allows for daily trade reports and journal on the simulator account, whereas paying for the Combine itself does not. If a trader pays for the $150 membership in order to get the initial reduced rate for the Combine and access to their daily trade logs in the simulated account, do they still require a paid membership in order to access their daily logs when they go live? I also noticed there is no platform fee, only the charts for $25/month (which is listed as optional). Since there is no recurring combine fee, a trader's fixed costs if required to maintain a membership is $175/month ($150 plus $25 for charts), is that correct? Scalperjoe- Both options give you trade reports for your COMBINE account. In the membership you receive another account "Practice" that gets trade reports displayed on it as well. The Membership also gives you a 45 minutes sessions with a professional trading coach. ALL our coaches are on the CBOT trading floor and Trade both screen and pit. The next part of the question you mention no platform fees but charts are $25... This is ONLY when you are LIVE (financially funded with PTP). You do not have membership fees when you earn your LIVE trading opportunity. The membership fees is what TopstepTrader charges to help develop you in the program to get you to the point you are trading well enough for funding. Providing you with all the tools to help you succeed and a trading coaching that you have access to once a month. mp
Quote from Lucias: Does this mean that all future combine fees are waived or just the first one? This is important because I've claimed that it is possible that one goal of the combines is to keep traders recycling through combines over and over generating fees for TST. If when a trader passes a combine then he is never charged again then this would provide some evidence against this claim. However, if only the first combine is waived but not additional combines then it raises questions and supports that the combine is setup as a revenue generation source. If one were really scouting traders then it would only make sense that either A. they were cleared (no more fees) or B. they were dropped (no cut). There is never a reason to charge a trader who passed a combine for a legitament operation. If a Funded Trader is sent back to the Combine, the deposit requirements are waived for ALL future Combine accounts. Funded Traders also receive a deposit refund for the Combine they successfully completed prior to being taken live. Additionally, if a Funded Trader is sent back to the Combine, and he meets the Combine objective again, the funded account's balance is RESET. The trader does NOT have to make any previous losses (Patak Trading Partners absorbs ALL losses below the initial account balance).
Quote from ScalperJoe: You're right, but it seems confusing. On the site, here's what it says for the practice account: "Members will have access to the Trade Report and Daily Trading Journal for their practice account. Non-member's practice accounts will not have access to these tools." If you sign up for just the basic Combine, you don't get a practice account, however you are provided with daily stats once you're in the Combine. If you are not a member and Enter the COMBINE and want a practice account along side your Combine account you can do this. BUT that practice account will not have trade reports. Practice accounts are useful as it keeps you from putting or making that impulsive trade in your account that is being evaluated ie. THE COMBINE ACCOUNT. mp
Quote from Lucias: Michael, I appreciate that you've taken the time to answer my questions. However, your answer raises a lot of other questions. It is my understanding you've had a large number of recruits pass the combines. If you don't have 12 traders who've cleared at least 30k then doesn't that suggest that you may not be giving those traders the "tools" needed to reach consistent success? Your minimum combine requires 4k to pass. You've been around for over 2 years. By what metric are you judging that you're producing successful traders? Because it seems to me that you are not. I think the problem is that your recruits have unrealistic goals and not enough capital. At the minimum level, you're only funding at $1,000 but your giving those recruits a $500 max risk limit. I think the honest thing to do would be to raise that risk limit to something reasonable, like $4,000 or to reduce the max risk limit to something like $125-$150. You've create an impression of a much higher funding level on your website for the entry fee then you actually deliver. For example, most people would not expect their daily risk limit to be 50% of their total risk capital, one would expect that to be in the 4x-8x range. Likewise, you suggest that you're funded at 30k but you only can have a 1k dd on 30k or 3%. I don't think any trader would anticipate that if he were funding with a 30k account that he'd only be able to risk 3% before being cut. A 30% risk on the capital would be $9,000 and that would be realistic. Also, I'm one of the few traders who might both be able to pass the combine and produce consistent profits for you. The problem is that you don't offer enough risk capital to make it worthwhile. I only need to do 1/4th what your target goal is in the live markets to produce the same return. At the lowest tier level, the trader is only really receiving $825 in non risk funding because they put up almost $200 at risk. How do you plan to address these inadequacies? What do you say the trader who says, you know what if I can find just $800 bucks to laying around then I keep 100% profits for myself and don't need to meet any objectives? Again, I strongly suggest you raise the risk capital to the monthly profit objective or at least 5x the max risk limit if you are serious about producing traders versus generating combine fees. I will try to answer this to the best of my ability: Lucias-If you don't have 12 traders who've cleared at least 30k then doesn't that suggest that you may not be giving those traders the "tools" needed to reach consistent success? mp- Every trader in our program is given the very tools which many traders have used to succeed. Lucias-I think the problem is that your recruits have unrealistic goals and not enough capital. mp- We have heard that traders need more of this and need more of that to succeed. What it comes down to is the trader recognizing what is not working for them and putting in the hard work it takes to get better. For example- We have funded traders that build their accounts with ease and some that struggle right out of the gate. BOTH with the exact same capital. I have also seen traders build their account up past $10k in their first two weeks, only to see them change their thought process and end up losing all they added in equity and then some. We have seen what works and what doesn't and our model is set up to help those succeed who are ready and develop those in the Combine who need more time. Lucias you mentioned- Also, I'm one of the few traders who might both be able to pass the combine and produce consistent profits for you. The problem is that you don't offer enough risk capital to make it worthwhile. mp- Whether it is worthwhile or not is subjective. You might not feel it is worth it to you, many see it as a great opportunity. If you are able to add equity to the account and trade consistently, there is no limit to where you can take the account. Once you are proven as a live trader and a true partner in the account, there can are no limits to what can be accomplished. Lucias you mention- What do you say to the trader who says, you know what if I can find just $800 bucks to laying around then I keep 100% profits for myself and don't need to meet any objectives? mp- First we do not take your deposit when you are selected for funding or meet these requirements: http://www.topsteptrader.com/deposit So you do not have risk capital. Next we are providing you an opportunity to receive FINANCIAL BACKING (ie. someone to take a stake in you and believes you have what it takes to generate profits for both parties involved YOU and your backer) If you want to fund yourself that is your personal decision and someone you may or may not want to do when you get the call to from our scout team to trade for our equity partner PTP. Lucias you mention- again, I strongly suggest you raise the risk capital to the monthly profit objective or at least 5x the max risk limit if you are serious about producing traders versus generating Combine fees. mp- There are some good traders out there waiting to be found, we are going to find them. We know we offer a sound opportunity to many to have the accountability in their Combine account to truly make strides in improving their trading, and work toward a funded account. I hope that helps. Let me know if you have further questions or if I did not cover what you asked. I tried to sum up things the best I could. mp
Quote from ScalperJoe: No big deal, I've been exchanging emails with two equity trading buddies who want to trade futures, and are looking at this. One has the funds to open their own account, one doesn't, but they both want the tools/education/chat room and paying $150 for that and a sim account seems reasonable. Hey man, I got them into the Velez deal for 5 grand, and we know how that turned out, lol! So basically, paying for membership gives you that "separate" account, but it's not required. Got it. ScalperJoe- If they want to go with either of the clearing firms we know they would receive FREE access to the Squawk radio. Have them email scouting@topsteptrader.com and mention that they are interested in opening a personal account with either of our clearing firms, someone on our end will help them out. If they do go with our clearing firm it will allow us to pull their trades each day and update their trader profile and most importantly their trade reports with that days trading activity.. We have traders that are funding their own personal accounts that are also members that use all the services we have. (Which btw we have a great breaking news service in realtime. It's cheaper than ransquawk since it comes when the membership and it is a hell of a lot faster. There are perks being on the trading floor, lots of info on wall boards makes for a good audio feed all day while you are trading and in our TST Squawk radio w/ chat room). These traders that use our service and are members also get the benefits of a trading coach session each month to discuss their PERSONAL trading. This is like Derek Jeter having a batting coach (which he does and works with daily). We want traders to have this whether PTP is funding you or you are on your own. mp
Quote from ExchangeBonds: This should put to rest that the combine is meant to just recycle people through the combine to generate fees and that it is a genuine opportunity. Would it be better to trade your own $50k account and keep all the profits? It sure would but not everyone has that. I also think anyone that has the ability to pass the combine also has the smarts to decide if the split is worth it to them. For some, there is a psychological difference between trading your own money vs getting backed, even if it is illogical. Others might not have the money to open up an account. There are reasons for doing it. Well said. mp
Quote from traderchi128: Ok GMST, here's my 2 cents on everything. I think I have conversed with you on here in the past. You seem like a good kid so I will try and be nice. No promises. For a new trader/guy with little to no experience, Patak is fine to start out and see if you can make it. Spend a few hundred bucks instead of funding your own account and losing it all if you don't have what it takes. If you are profitable they seem to be very willing to back guys. If you can't get out of the combine then you probably shouldn't be trading. To me their daily loss limits seem reasonable. I think you are hung up on the max position size in regards to $ limits. Well.....nobody is forcing you to trade the max size every trade. Either save your max trades for ideal set ups or wait until you build a cushion to do more max trades. You have to remember, a lot of new traders/wannabe traders out there have no discipline/no risk management skills. While you might think that Patak is being a bit tight, they are teaching you the most important tool of being a great trader which is discipline/risk management. The one problem I do see with their program is the bouncing back between real money and sim accounts. That , in my opinion, is a horrible way to do things. Trading can be a psychological mindfuck at times. If you have a guy on Sim and he does well enough, then you back him, he goes through a drawdown and back to sim, when he is making money on sim the 2nd time he is going to be beyond messed up thinking this should be real money. While I am no fan of sim trading (I have been in the biz 20 yrs and seen so many do great on sim, then get obliterated when it went to real money), if a firm is going to use it, should only be for the initial period. Maybe have the initial sim time a lot longer. Maybe 3-6 months (I can't really see how in 20 days they will know much). Then after that longer time back them. For those who are going to whine that 6 months on sim is too long and they can't afford to live? Boo friggin Hoo. Get a 2nd job while learning. That or cut back on your lifestyle until you get going. All of us traders who have been around started out making squat and having to work 2nd jobs. There is no free lunch in becoming a trader. The other thing which is a concern is the lack of traders making any real money there. Being open for 2 yrs and not having many guys reach 30k implies to me that they don't have adequate funding for their experienced guys. That's a red flag. So now that I have confused you, here is my take: New guys should go there, and find out if they have what it takes. If they don't do well, no big deal...only a few hundo. If they do well, then trade for a year. If they don't back you with adequate capital then take your track record to other firms out there that will. They ARE out there. Just got to look and put in the effort. If you can't get into a firm then show your track record to a friend/family member who completely understands trading and maybe they will stake you. If you are that good, they shouldn't have a problem doing that. As far as Mav. Give him a break. He has been short a ton of JCP stock for a few weeks and is getting squeezed badly. He has the right to be ornery. Traderchi128... Thanks for the great post. I agree with about 95% of it. I to started small only after funding myself big and blowing that out. It was when I started small and got another job at night did I start leaning and build patience and discipline.. it takes A LOT of time.. After for those that are not putting up the money it is not about capitalization as we have open some us and got the same results. IT is mental .. a lot of people have talent but mentally they are like you said mind F'd this is what happens to some when they just started or they have been trading and want to make more but psychologically can't get over the hump then get frustrated and smoke their account.. That is one of the reason we push with all our might that discipline and patience is key.. Lastly as for the 10 day and 20 day.. We have these because we want traders to work on things every 10 days.. Trading psychologist say that bad habits can be broken every month or so.. SO if a trader has a bad habit we tell them to go to the 20 day and work this out. But they must stay disciplined and focus on working their issue out to keep it form keeping you moving forward and break the bad habit. The 10 day are for those that fine tune their trading performance or mechanics. Ultimately if someone is ready RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW, they will surface in a 10 day or 20 day Combine. As for bouncing back and forth from Combine to Live... we are constantly working with that trader to get them better. Some occasions we may tell them to talk to a Trading psychologist, Some occasion we work with them on one area they struggle in but ultimately it is up to them to get over this... much like an athlete. Though getting them back on SIM and holding them accountable helps makes sim closer to real and allows them to feel the effects of being wrong. Either way good post and I do think you see what we are doing from a veteran trader perceptive.. mp
Quote from Maverick74: Michael, When you go live with Ninja, will there be any additional costs using that platform? Will there be any other material differences with traders who choose to use Ninja? Maverick74- There will be no cost with TST or PTP.. buy you will need to have your own license key whether that is a lease or an own is on the trader. They can get that with Ninja. I will be talking to our contact at Ninja/Zenfire soon to confirm all this. We look to add this platform in about a month. mp __________________ TopstepTrader is structured to educate, develop and fund traders. Learn more: http://www.topsteptrader.com/. Questions? Contact us: scouting@topsteptrader.com or +1-312-252-9858 . My TST profile: http://www.topsteptrader.com/ViewProfile/NEBRASKA/0/p/0