TopstepTrader and Patak Trading Partners- Any and all questions answered here

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from Lucias:

Michael,
I appreciate that you've taken the time to answer my questions. However, your answer raises a lot of other questions. It is my understanding you've had a large number of recruits pass the combines. If you don't have 12 traders who've cleared at least 30k then doesn't that suggest that you may not be giving those traders the "tools" needed to reach consistent success? Your minimum combine requires 4k to pass. You've been around for over 2 years. By what metric are you judging that you're producing successful traders? Because it seems to me that you are not.

I think the problem is that your recruits have unrealistic goals and not enough capital. At the minimum level, you're only funding at $1,000 but your giving those recruits a $500 max risk limit. I think the honest thing to do would be to raise that risk limit to something reasonable, like $4,000 or to reduce the max risk limit to something like $125-$150. You've create an impression of a much higher funding level on your website for the entry fee then you actually deliver. For example, most people would not expect their daily risk limit to be 50% of their total risk capital, one would expect that to be in the 4x-8x range. Likewise, you suggest that you're funded at 30k but you only can have a 1k dd on 30k or 3%. I don't think any trader would anticipate that if he were funding with a 30k account that he'd only be able to risk 3% before being cut. A 30% risk on the capital would be $9,000 and that would be realistic.

Also, I'm one of the few traders who might both be able to pass the combine and produce consistent profits for you. The problem is that you don't offer enough risk capital to make it worthwhile. I only need to do 1/4th what your target goal is in the live markets to produce the same return. At the lowest tier level, the trader is only really receiving $825 in non risk funding because they put up almost $200 at risk.

How do you plan to address these inadequacies? What do you say the trader who says, you know what if I can find just $800 bucks to laying around then I keep 100% profits for myself and don't need to meet any objectives? Again, I strongly suggest you raise the risk capital to the monthly profit objective or at least 5x the max risk limit if you are serious about producing traders versus generating combine fees.
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Why don't you just try The Combine and check it out. The requirements are strict but the barrier of entry is low.

I would try it out if they traded equities and have an office in NYC. Don't want to do remote.

I also don't think TST and Patak Trading exist to teach. They exist to make money. They accomplish this by scouting for profitable traders through the Combine. That's my take based on what have I read so far.

So no Kumbayas and no holding hands. Besides, it's gay. Don't like firms that are touchy feely warm and fuzzy. But by the same token, don't like firms with criminals and risk managers that punt your ass out the door b/c you had a bad month or two.

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from MichaelPatak:

If a Funded Trader is sent back to the Combine, the deposit requirements are waived for ALL future Combine accounts.

Funded Traders also receive a deposit refund for the Combine they successfully completed prior to being taken live.

Additionally, if a Funded Trader is sent back to the Combine, and he meets the Combine objective again, the funded account's balance is RESET. The trader does NOT have to make any previous losses (Patak Trading Partners absorbs ALL losses below the initial account balance).
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I like this.

Why don't other prop lite firms do this?

It's a win-win model. Kewl.

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from Maverick74:

Wharton? Not a chance dude.
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Lol. There might be another school named Wharton somewhere.

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from WinstonTJ:

Clearly you have never traded someone else's money. They make the rules and you decide whether or not you want to live with it. If you want to trade my money you must do so wearing a clown suit and sing the national anthem after every trade entry or exit (learn to sing quick if you scalp).

Deal??? Take it or leave it.

If they set up their company properly they are protected so knowing the owners is trivial. All you can ever sue is the LLC (or company whatever form it is) and not the person so drop it. He isn't telling you who the owners and partners are because I'm guessing there are silent equity partners that have invested their own capital with the firm and those partners don't want their names spread all over the internet. It's a privately held company so it's none of your business who the owners are or what % equity they hold, etc. If you don't like it just move along and do business with someone else.

It's called a privately held company for a reason. PRIVATE!

Just about every equity prop shop operates this way. Mr. Patak has actually disclosed and put up with a lot more than most people would.

Just as an FYI usually the details of the relationship with a clearing firm would be protected under an NDA so if Patak posts it he most probably would be in violation of an NDA. On the equities side you can't even talk to a clearing firm about rates without signing an NDA. I assume it's the same with futures. Even if that's not the case you are never going to get what you are asking for because it's a foolish question/demand. Who cares what Patak is paying their clearing firm per trade... See below, do you care what the stores are paying the manufacturer for the goods or do you just care what the end-user price is to you??

I need to buy a lawnmower. The one I like is selling for $200 at Home Depot and $250 at Lowes.

I want to buy a pack of gum. CVS sells the kind I like for $1.50 and Rite Aid sells the same pack for $1.75.

That's how you look at the situation. Evaluate the cost, the product, the service, etc. and make a decision. No one is forcing you to trade at Patak so if you don't like it just move on. For all you know Patak's clearing firm could be PAYING Patak per trade and they are making more than 100% rip on traders - but it doesn't matter because all you need to be concerned with is the price you pay. If you don't like it just move on.
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Price/cost isn't everything.

It would really suck if O. Velez was the owner of Patak. Lol.

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from CoolTraderDude:

Would you be willing to give one of the critical members of ET... (not necessarily me)... A free Combine and have them document their experience here on ET liveâ¦!??
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Great idea. Give a sample documented experience of a Combine.

Great PR and advertising move.

marketsurfer · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from cygnetnoir:

This, to me, is the most interesting idea posted in this thread.
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apply this idea to double or nothing binary options www.nadex.com and it gets very interesting. wonder why NO ONE can even guess direction correctly more than few times in a row?

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from traderchi128:

I see that Patak is offering a free shot to anyone on here. I think there is only one person he should offer it to.

GMST.

GMST has been talking a lot. Let's see if he can back up his boasts and actually succeed at trading.

Come on GMST.....let's se you trade!

And none of this bullshit that the limits are too tight.
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Don't mean to put anyone on the spot but I would love to see Lucias take a shot at it.

If not, let's ask Jack. Jack Hershey. Lol.

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from Lucias:

Michael, its your casino. Just a few notes

1. It will be hard for me to pass. At my best I can do 25%-30% of my max limit per day (while rarely hitting that limit) but I don't always trade at my best. I've did extremely well in my live account since going live (challenging the 100% net level) and during no month would I ever pass the combine. I came close 1 month though. In fact, to achieve combine results live.. one needs to achieve a 48x return on risk. I've never did this. I can do 100%-200%-300%-400% returns and not pass the combine objectives consistently (based on my current performance). Hell, if you can do that.. all you need to do is scrape together 1k to trade for a living... scrape together 2k and you can be making 100k per year... wow now that's selling the dream!

2. You claim from get go that the combine fees were to demonstrate seriousness. I've already demonstrated seriousness by risking my real capial in the market. I already showed you that there are other ways to measure seriousness and combine fees aren't the best way.

3. You claim to treat your traders like franchisee athletes... as a serious trader, I demand serious tools. I'm not going to have my performance and possible confidence suffer because you insist on using the sub standard T4 DOM. I tried the demo and did much better in my live acccount then I did on the T4 because the T4 DOM was so poorly designed.

Micheal, let's get real... you're not going to attract the best.

Let's get real also.. there's no way your going to be $1 off your risk limit in the live markets.. the trader who wants to ensure he doesnt hit that limit has to cut it to about 85% .
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Lucias just do it. Even if you fail, you could demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of the Combine.

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from marketsurfer:

Come on, TA crew--- nodoji, brasovski, fahq, Oraclewizard, xspurt---- these guys are offering you the chance at credibility, to prove your mettle with real funds in a real account. No more excuses --- lets see what you can do. surf
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If memory serves me correctly, isn't NoDoji a consistent CL trader? Great opp. to silence the doubters and naysayers.

SteveNYC · Sep 9, 2012

Quote from traderchi128:

I could be worse. He could have also asked for a salary during the free trial.
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Lol.

Seriously, let's not think that salary is for wimps. It's good to have a salary than not. You never know when the times will get rough.