Mav, I'm not sure where you get all these ideas: yes I do send you many PMs but perhaps you read them sloppily. I don't recall ever to admiting to self destructing but it doesn't matter even if I did because your argument is about self control. As an aside, I've always been rather succcesful actually. I have learned the value in having a max risk limit and do obide by that. A lot of your assumptions are flat out wrong.. as I said, I routinely slow down and take a break when I believe I am losing more then usual. As stated: your argument is about self control and not relevant to the mathematics of the game. The highest TST/PTK combine costs $400.. who's to say that a combine tryout won't lose control and blow whatever capital he has trying to pass... maybe its $4,000 or $5,000. I've already shown that right now TST/PTK is a game, not a good game for the tryout, and not a serious opportunity. However, should they change this in the future then I'm willing to revise my assesment. As, I'm confident in my assesment this will be my last post on the matter. Mav, one final thing to think about.. if 5% max risk is absurd then how much more absurd is it to risk 50% of your account per day... which is what you will do at TST/PTK if you want to actually utilize the max risk/day given. I'd also like to refute your statement, if I had many 5% loss days then I'd take a break, revise, perhaps drop my contracts and my risk limit. See my suggestions for how to run a combine. I would operate in a similar way. It is possibe that I'd dual trade sim and live to evaluate my performance.
Just to be clear, do you have "an interest" in both firms or do you have ownership in both firms? Also: 1. Why do you hold yourself out as a CME Member Firm when the rules say you are not allowed to? 2. I assumed that you marked up trades because many people have stated that they can get better rates at Interactive Brokers....I guess I shouldn't have assumed. Can you please post a pdf of your billing from your clearing firm so we can see that there are no mark-ups. I definitely understand you are under no obligation to do this because potential traders wouldn't fall under the requirement that you need to if asked.
Lucias- I respect your opinion. We are looking for those that can play the game. The game of trading. Which is a vicious game that can wipe you completely out. Losing big money trying to learn this game in the live market has taken many traders lives. What we off is a slow approach to learning it in a safe environment and giving the time you need to develop into a trader you are confident in and that is rooted in discipline. We have many tools that we offer for you to use while you DEVELOP, whether you are looking for funding or simply developing your trading. We are an option and an opportunity. There is always the alternative to funding your own account, learning in a live market with real money. That is the route I initially did and lost $90k when I first started. If this option was available, yes I still would have funded myself and given it a shot but instead of blowing out 3 $30k accounts it would have been more like one. mp
Michael, I had long discussions with Maverick about your firm. But if you notice, this is the ONLY question I have asked you "directly" in this thread. I hope you can honor me with a response. Thanks!
He wanted to know how many failed, how many made 30k 100 k etc I only want to know how much the top dog made Too different things I already know what I can do.
Hello Michael I appreciate your reply profitable traders , with a live account do need flexibility to neg a better deal , good to know that you work with your traders
Clearly you have never traded someone else's money. They make the rules and you decide whether or not you want to live with it. If you want to trade my money you must do so wearing a clown suit and sing the national anthem after every trade entry or exit (learn to sing quick if you scalp). Deal??? Take it or leave it. If they set up their company properly they are protected so knowing the owners is trivial. All you can ever sue is the LLC (or company whatever form it is) and not the person so drop it. He isn't telling you who the owners and partners are because I'm guessing there are silent equity partners that have invested their own capital with the firm and those partners don't want their names spread all over the internet. It's a privately held company so it's none of your business who the owners are or what % equity they hold, etc. If you don't like it just move along and do business with someone else. It's called a privately held company for a reason. PRIVATE! Just about every equity prop shop operates this way. Mr. Patak has actually disclosed and put up with a lot more than most people would. Just as an FYI usually the details of the relationship with a clearing firm would be protected under an NDA so if Patak posts it he most probably would be in violation of an NDA. On the equities side you can't even talk to a clearing firm about rates without signing an NDA. I assume it's the same with futures. Even if that's not the case you are never going to get what you are asking for because it's a foolish question/demand. Who cares what Patak is paying their clearing firm per trade... See below, do you care what the stores are paying the manufacturer for the goods or do you just care what the end-user price is to you?? I need to buy a lawnmower. The one I like is selling for $200 at Home Depot and $250 at Lowes. I want to buy a pack of gum. CVS sells the kind I like for $1.50 and Rite Aid sells the same pack for $1.75. That's how you look at the situation. Evaluate the cost, the product, the service, etc. and make a decision. No one is forcing you to trade at Patak so if you don't like it just move on. For all you know Patak's clearing firm could be PAYING Patak per trade and they are making more than 100% rip on traders - but it doesn't matter because all you need to be concerned with is the price you pay. If you don't like it just move on.
Lucias/CW, do you really want to get going on the lies again? I still have all that stuff I posted saved on my desktop just in case the mods deleted it, as they did. Nothing personal but you are really freakin annoying when you start talking about all your imaginary success. And you sure are critical of a legitimate business for a guy that sells snake oil when you've never had any sucess at trading yourself. If you want to see a real scam check out this optimized system for sale for 3k by Lucias lol. http://themarketpredictor.com/
You're welcome Michael. Overall I do think what you guys are doing is very good. It's a good way for new guys to "figure out" if trading is for them. The limits you set are more than reasonable and will teach guys the discipline they need. I think it's also great that you give guys a choice of what markets to trade. I think it's VERY important to learn in a market that moves/somehwat volatile. I agree with Mav that something like ES (right now with The Vix at 17.00) is a bad place to learn. It goes nowhere all day so bad habits can be born (averaging into losers, letting losers go.......in a dead environment people can get away with that). Something like Crude or The Ags are in my opinion a much better place to learn right now. When the ES picks up, then guys should go there and trade. I hear what you are saying about the sim-live-sim thing....and yes when they get sent back to sim they do need to perform to get back to the live thing, so in a way if they do well back in the Sim it isn't like it was a waste. I would just be concerned about a guy who happens to have a drawdown period right after doing well in Sim, gets clipped with real money, then back to sim. That could really mess with their head. When they go back to live do they have to make up that loss from the first time in live trading ? If not and Patak eats the loss then it seems like it would be a lot easier mentally on a guy who got dropped down to the minors. At the end of the day this game is almost entirely psychological/mental. If guys can get that part down the rest will fall into place. I think the trading coach thing is a great idea. It's always good to talk with someone when going through a drawdown period. After 20 yrs I still talk to someone when I get into a rut.
Wrong.... As I posted before, Patak is a CME Rule 106.H. Trading Member. If you don't know what that is it is basically just for better rates. One of the stipulations is: "The firm may not allocate expenses to trades or traders in excess of actual direct and indirect expenses of the individual member firm trades or traders. Only actual expenses incurred may be allocated â a mark up on expenses is not permitted. Further, opportunity costs may not be allocated. CME Rule 106.H. must maintain and provide adequate supporting calculations and documentation of such allocated expenses and their reasonableness." This means they can't mark up the trades and they must "provide adequate supporting calculations and documentation" Plus there is the fact that 106.H firms cannot hold themselves out as CME Members. Michael has bragged about that in this thread and has it posted on his website. Both a violation of CME rules. Please feel free to call CME Compliance at 312-930-1000 to confirm