Thought pattern to stay in sync with the trend?

Discussion in 'Trading' started by learner2007, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. A few years ago I helped a kid who worked at the Starbucks I visit daily to learn TA (price & volume, no indicators). He is now working in IT and his schedule allows in to daytrade. He is doing ok but seems to have a big problem getting in sync with the price movement on the 1 minute charts he uses.

    I'll try to explain his problem as I think I understand it.
    He has a number of setups that work for him but he misses way too many opportunities. It seems that he sees the woods and then concentrates on the trees but then losess the direction of the woods, or the trees only appear to weaken the direction of the woods and he unnecssarily passes up the trade. Or he gives too much emphasis on the woods and doesn't see the trees.
    Or he questions the strength of the clear cut setup in the trees if the woods are not clear cut or known.

    It seems to me that over analysis and judgement as to the strength of the stages within the woods (trend) are causing his problems with focus. With my old and simple mind I offered suggestions, but they didn't help. I've not experienced his problems and was hoping that someone could suggest a thought pattern to use realtime that would allow, or force, him to flow with the trend and stay in sync with the price movement.

    I don't know if this type of problem is common among the programming/IT oriented mind of the younger generation or not, but if so, maybe someone (young!) could offer advice that I could pass on to him. And it would be greatly appreciated

    Thank you
  2. How old are you? ...nevermind, not relevant. I wonder if this question would be better in the psych section. Anyway, here's a psych answer.

    My generation seems to have a big problem with insecurity. That makes us prone to wanting to double check our answers with a credible source before going forward. We're playing the game while constantly glancing to the sidelines to make sure the coach is giving looks of approval. It's the cause of a lot of anxiety and hesitency, second-guessing and such. I could literally go on for pages, but in short, the mindset is that "it is NOT okay to be wrong." An irrational fear that something very very bad would happen if we act on this trade and it goes wrong. It makes us over-prone to holding on to losers, skipping out on what would have been winners, selling winners short, and having panic attacks at every corner.
    This is the souce of my passing on so many good opportunities and I think it may be his too. If he can shake the feeling that some invisible authority figure is going to question his goodness if he isn't absolutely certain that he won't lose his own money, then he can be a very good trader. That's my thoughts.
  3. QUOTE]Quote from J.Joseph:

    How old are you? ...nevermind, not relevant. I wonder if this question would be better in the psych section. Anyway, here's a psych answer.

    My generation seems to have a big problem with insecurity.


    Over 20 and under 200!

    Insecurity. Interesting, I hadn't thought of that. In the declining years insecurity is less of a consideration knowing that tomorrow morning you could very well go face first into your pancakes!

    I can see how insecurity could be a cause of re- or over-analysis of the trees even though there is no significant negative there which could be the start of a change in the trend direction.
    Thank you, I'll talk to him about this.

    Actually, right or wrong, I was thinking that he could work into a more automatic approach with some sort of methodical thought pattern that would keep him in sync with the trend and flow with the rythem of it, and eliminate what looks to be a bump and go situation.

    Thank you again.
  4. Staying with trend, in a a day?? OK;
    for about 97-99%, that is not daytrading.

    Does ''doing ok''daytrading means he is breaking even?? Thats a loss; unless that's your ''goal.LOL:D''
  5. interesting

    first off, trading a 1 min chart, he's 'scalping' ? what's he trading ?

    in regard to J.Joseph's post
    saw this story on one of Canada's tv news shows:
    'Woman wins stalking order against mom and dad'
    "We’ve all had or known parents who are a bit smothering. Aubrey Ireland’s are more
    the Norma Bates type. The University of Cincinnati senior recently won a stalking order
    against her parents, who took overparenting to “Every Breath You Take” extremes.
    Ireland’s parents frequently dropped in unannounced from their Kansas home,
    accused Aubrey of drug use and promiscuity, told the school she was mentally ill,
    threatened to have her taken in for mental evaluations, and installed spyware on her
    laptop and cell phone. The school hired security guards to keep them away from her
    acting and musical performances, and gave her a scholarship when her parents
    stopped paying her tuition."
    at the end of the report I thought I saw a book titled -
    'A Nation of Wusses: How America's Leaders Lost the Guts to Make Us Great'
    by Ed Rendell May 14 2012
    but it wasn't that, book cover showed a child sitting on the floor wrapped in yellow tape
    with 'Caution' (?) printed on it, suggesting the over-protectiveness of parents that in
    turn causes children to grow into adults who can't - don't know how to make decisions

    I have to question whether I could concentrate on my job/work And still be able to trade
    which in my case requires 100% attention to trading - tv is on BNN or CNBC but the
    volume is off

    I also don't think a 1 min chart has a 'trend'
    I trade the 6E and over a period of time there can be several 5 pip up and down moves
    that are very tradeable. a while ago in one of my journals I stated that I believed the
    minimum timeframe one could consider to display a 'trend' was the 15 min chart, but
    this isn't to say any timeframe including a seconds chart can't be traded

    relevant to me and what's interesting is that my main analysis method from which I
    derive trades is too complex and time consuming to trade the 1 min chart - my charts
    setups is a 1 and 5 min NT charts and all other timeframes except 1 min charts in MT4
    so to trade the 1 min chart I have to use a different trading decision method, but my
    other analysis methods are so ingrained I keep slipping into using them and spend
    all my time 'looking at the trees' rather than saying 'Forest !' — 'TRADE !'
  6. Sorry that I wasn't clearer. While he finds a few of his setups each day and trades them (I think he said 1 to 3) there were many more opportunities that he either didn't see realtime due to what seems to be a woods & trees problem, or that he saw but didn't trade which may be caused by over-anaysis or misgiven strength to the woods or trees, being either too much or too little. But that could just be a lack of experience.

    His knowledge of TA is quite good and he is able to correctly find short term trends within the day on his 1 minute charts. But as I see it he needs a more systematic approach within which to apply his analysis. In the military it's called 'do it by the numbers'.

    I don't know, I just thought there might be a way for him to organize his analysis in an order that would enable him to avoid missing so many opportunities which others may also have experienced and found a solution. But maybe I'm just overly eager to help him as I respect the effort he's made to learn TA, and yet it might just be something he has to overcome on his own.

    Thank you
  7. Daring


    This "friend" of yours, wouldn't have to be you right?
  8. Nope. I am not too proud to ask for advice if there is something I want to know. This is about the same kid I wrote about in the following thread almost 2 years ago.
  9. Yes, that story captures my point precisely. In fact, her story is not too different than my wife's story. Never being allowed the freedom to make our own mistakes makes it seem like making a mistake at all is not okay. It's not about losing a trading fee plus $5 vs. trading fee plus $5000. There's no difference because, "You should have known better." It puts us in an impossible situation until true freedom as a human being is achieved. For any of us young guys to be good traders - methods and systems aside - there has to be an emotional difference between losing small and losing big. Not just "blanket shame." As it is, it's just shame, but not until I sell. So I'm compelled to hold on way too long and then continued loss turns to frustration, then giving up. That's the point the market reverses. Just after I sell from giving up. But I'd never get that far if the small $5 loss meant something small and not something big just because "it's a loss."
    Maybe I'm just writing about myself and not everyone with overbearing parents, but I took the biggest step forward in trading when I was able to realize it was my money, my decision, my reward, my failure, my choice... and I didn't have to fear anyone sneaking onto my campus to tell the authorities I was mentally ill (reference to Ireland's story). No social consequences to my actions means much greater agility and clarity of thinking in the market.
  10. J.Joseph: the word 'responsibility' comes to mind which might jump over and past what
    you've been writing about
    another is 'take charge', You are in charge
    You take charge and accept the responsibility of Your actions, something that's readily
    seen in adult males' personas
    they know what they doing, have clear thinking about their actions and consequences
    of those actions. related to trading it means you know your system Very well, so you've
    either got a B/S signal or you don't have a B/S signal
    price action can sometimes be perverse, but Knowing that, one takes the small loss as
    soon as it registers — taking responsibility for one's actions

    I don't see that morality comes into trading. trading's a matter of wins v losses
    as long as the profits from the wins are greater than the losses, you're a winning trader
    you're in charge and taking responsibility for the manner in which you trade

    so far as learner2007's 'student's' concerned, I think it's a matter of distraction
    #10     Dec 30, 2012