this thread has the potential to change your life

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Gordon Gekko, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. pattersb

    pattersb Guest


    :p
     
    #11     Jul 27, 2006
  2. TGregg

    TGregg

    But if there is no free will, then we cannot stop ourselves from punishing them. ;)
     
    #12     Jul 27, 2006
  3. i don't see it that way. you can say if we are ever going to stop the punishment stuff, it is already determined. however, discussions like this could be what actually led to things changing.

    say someone beats their dog. you could say they have no free will. they were determined to be someone who beats their dog UP TO THAT TIME. now say that person is exposed to someone who teaches why punishment is incorrect. they may not be so punishing now towards their dog.
     
    #13     Jul 27, 2006
  4. Show us the free will for you to post something intelligent....for a change.

     
    #14     Jul 27, 2006
  5. Look, i feel compelled to chime in here...........


    WHAT????????
     
    #15     Jul 27, 2006
  6. pattersb

    pattersb Guest

    FREE WILL AND DETERMINISM
    The idea of human freedom antedates philosophical
    speculation on this idea. When philosophers began to
    inquire into the nature and existence of freedom, they
    did not initially think of freedom as an attribute of
    a man's will. For example, no theoretical discussion
    of the concept of will appears in the works of Plato,
    and therefore, no talk about the freedom of the will.
    Nonetheless, Plato had definite ideas regarding the
    conditions under which a man is free. A man is free
    when the rational part of his soul governs the other
    parts, viz., the feelings and passions. A man may thus
    be enslaved by his feelings or passions if they dominate
    his being. Governance by reason produces harmony
    and justice; in the individual, justice is conceived as
    the state of the soul in which each part performs only
    its proper function in harmony with all other functions.
    A man is liable to sin if his soul is unjust; but the sin
    is involuntary for no man would knowingly choose to
    be in this state. Nor does a just man choose evil volun-
    tarily for the explanation of this choice is always ig-
    norance. Hence, according to Plato, a person in whom
    reason reigns, and who possesses knowledge, can do
    no evil.
    Since a man incurs responsibility only for his volun-
    tary actions, Aristotle undertakes an ethical and psy-


    chological inquiry into the voluntary. An act is un-
    willed if its moving principle is outside the person, i.e.,
    the person is acting under compulsion, or if the act
    can be explained by reference to the person's igno-
    rance. Aristotle makes two qualifications regarding the
    second way in which an act can be unwilled: (1) if
    a man does not regret having performed the act once
    his ignorance is removed, the act may be said to have
    been involuntary rather than unwilled; (2) the igno-
    rance must be about circumstances and consequences,
    not moral principles. A man who acts contrary to a
    moral principle whose truth he refuses to acknowledge
    is acting willingly (assuming he is not acting under
    compulsion or through ignorance of circumstances and
    consequences) and wickedly (Wheelright, p. 203).
    If a man chooses to do something out of some desire
    or even a strong or sudden impulse, the moving princi-
    ple is in the man and he is, therefore, acting willingly.
    Aristotle does not require for voluntariness, therefore,
    what libertarians will later require for freedom; to wit,
    that the act be caused by the actor or agent rather
    than some state of the agent, e.g., a desire.
    Choice is not identical with desire (choice has to
    do with matters in our power whereas desire is not
    so restricted) or with any cognitive state like belief
    or opinion (choices are good or bad whereas beliefs
    are true or false). It is a voluntary act preceded by
    deliberation in which a desire for some end is trans-
    formed into a desire for the means deemed appropriate
    to that end. Assuming that the chosen act is done
    willingly, it may be a virtuous or a vicious act. Virtue
    and vice, therefore, are voluntary. Moreover, a man
    may be responsible for the ignorance that makes his
    act unwilled and for the original choices that deter-
    mined his present character, even if it is not now within
    his power to act contrary to his character.
    Neither Plato nor Aristotle philosophized about
    man's freedom or responsibility in the light of problems
    that are raised by a conception of the world as a
    mechanism governed entirely by inviolable laws. The
    Stoic philosophers confronted this issue, but failed to
    provide a satisfactory account. They accepted a
    thoroughgoing materialistic determinism—everything
    necessarily obeys the order of nature, which was also
    conceived as Providence and thought of as a material
    entity. But this determinism turns out not to be really
    thoroughgoing, for, although man's actions are deter-
    mined, his attitudes and impressions, particularly his
    judgments about good and evil, are not. Since a man's
    attitude or intention is the sole determinant of moral
    good or evil, what happens to a man or what a man
    does is morally neutral. Hence, Providence, who de-
    termines what happens in the world rather than man's
    reaction to it, is absolved from the responsibility for
    moral evil.
     
    #16     Jul 27, 2006
  7. pattersb

    pattersb Guest

    Since a man's attitude or intention determines moral
    good or evil, i.e., virtue or vice, the only vice is the
    wrong attitude, i.e., judging that things really are evil.
    Hence, resignation or subordination to nature is the
    correct attitude. It is the attitude demanded by man's
    reason, which is an emanation of Providence. But, of
    course, man has it within his power to accept or reject
    the dictates of his own reason. (This conception of
    freedom is similar to a conception that appears in
    determinists at several points in the history of philoso-
    phy, viz., the idea that freedom is the recognition of
    necessity, i.e., the acceptance of the world as it has
    to be. See the discussion below of Spinoza.) This atti-
    tude of acceptance requires the suppression of passion
    and emotion, for these involve mistaken judgments
    about things, e.g., that some object is intrinsically
    desirable. This consequence of Stoic doctrine seems to
    imply a contradiction, however, for a part of nature,
    man's passionate nature, is being morally condemned.
    Some Stoics, grappling with the inconsistencies and
    other problems of their doctrine, attempted solutions.
    In the third century B.C. Cleanthes, for example, argued
    that foreordination by Providence does not imply that
    an action not performed is not possible.
    Epicurus had previously believed, however, that the
    validation of man's sense of freedom requires an in-
    deterministic world. He introduced into the doctrine
    of atomism, which he accepted, the idea that atoms
    spontaneously swerve and saw this spontaneity as the
    basis of a genuine control and direction by a person
    over his own actions and destiny. As the Epicurean
    Lucretius (first century B.C.) expressed it, we can act
    freely because the atoms of which the mind is com-
    posed can swerve minutely, transmitting their motion
    to the body.
    The first great Christian philosopher to grapple with
    the problem of human freedom in the light of Christian
    theology was Saint Augustine. Since Christianity im-
    posed certain moral obligations on man, it appeared
    to follow that man's will must be free. For if man's
    will is under constraint, God cannot legitimately make
    demands upon him and then punish him if the demands
    are not satisfied. The fundamental obligation man is
    under, according to Augustine, is the obligation to turn
    to and love God. Hence, man's will is free to turn to
    or turn away from God. The freedom of the will is
    evident from the fact that man chooses one or the
    other.
    A will that freely turns from God lacks a certain
    right order. The man himself, not God, is responsible
    for this absence and God cannot, therefore, be blamed

    for moral evil, i.e., for the lack in the man's will. But
    Augustine also maintained that a will cannot have right
    order without God's grace. A will is motivated by love;
    hence a good will must be motivated by the love of
    God. But it is God, through grace, that implants in
    man the seeds of man's love of God. A creature without
    grace will delight in the wrong objects. How free is
    man's will, then, if man depends so completely on
    God's grace?
    Although it is not entirely clear how Augustine dealt
    with this apparent conflict, he seems to have resolved
    it in the following way. Since free will is the ability
    to choose and since men do choose throughout their
    lives, all men have free will regardless of their state
    of grace. It is absurd to suggest that an act of will
    may not be free if freedom is the ability to will. But
    free will is not useful without grace. Once man is given
    grace, he has the ability to use his free will to attain
    union with God. Moreover, the fact that God knows
    beforehand how man will choose does not negate the
    freedom of will. To know what a man will do is not
    to constrain him to do it. God knows how man will
    freely choose.
     
    #17     Jul 27, 2006
  8. pattersb

    pattersb Guest

    Saint Thomas Aquinas also accepted the reality of
    free will. He believed, as did Augustine, that man's
    ultimate happiness or fulfillment is found only in God.
    If all men fully recognized this fact, they would choose
    God because man's will necessarily chooses what it
    conceives to be good or desirable. The will's being
    under this necessity does not preclude its being free
    for two reasons: (1) the necessity is not coercion since
    no external agent imposes itself upon the will inde-
    pendent of the will's inclinations. This distinction is
    similar to a distinction that will become central to the
    “reconciliationist” approach to free will (the view that
    there is no incompatibility between determinism and
    free will) as presented in Hume. As we shall see, Hume
    distinguishes coercion or compulsion from ordinary
    causation which, he maintains, involves no objective
    necessity. (2) Although a man must choose what he
    deems to be good, his judgment that something is good
    or bad is not necessitated. Hence the freedom of choice
    is the freedom of judgment that guides the will.
    A choice is free, therefore, if it is the product of
    deliberation involving free judgments. An animal's
    judgment is not free because it flows from a natural
    instinct rather than rational deliberation. The factor
    in rational deliberation that confers freedom upon the
    resultant judgment is the lack of a necessary connection
    between deliberation and judgment. Each potential act
    may be viewed by the person under its good aspects
    or under its bad aspects. Although the person must
    choose the act he believes to be good, he is free to
    confer this goodness on virtually any object because
    he is free to view the object in different ways.
    In the seventeenth century, the views of Benedict
    Spinoza on freedom are strikingly similar, in tone and
    content, to the ideas of the Stoics. Both accepted
    determinism; but Spinoza, unlike the Stoics, was
    unwavering in his application of determinism to the
    psychological domain. The behavior and mental life
    of human beings are completely determined and can-
    not, therefore, be different from what they are. We
    often think we are free or choose freely in a sense
    implying the absence of causal determination; but this
    belief is a consequence of our ignorance of the causes
    that determined our action or choice. Because the term
    “free will” was often used to explain behavior that was
    believed to be immune to explanation by underlying
    causes, Spinoza rejected this view of the concept.
    Moreover, it is absurd to praise and blame people since
    they are and do what they must be and do. We should
    rather seek to understand the causes of their actions
    and states of mind.

    Like the Stoics, Spinoza felt that the wise man would
    react to universal determinism in two ways: (1) he
    would, of course, acquiesce; and (2) he would seek
    knowledge of the causes of his own behavior in order
    to understand his position in nature. The latter takes
    on added significance in the light of Spinoza's meta-
    physical system. He believed that “mind” and “body”
    are not the names of distinct substances that jointly
    comprise man, but are rather the names of two differ-
    ent ways of conceiving the unitary man. Hence, every
    bodily state can be conceived as a mental one, and
    conversely. The ideas of an ignorant man will not be
    connected logically because ignorance is the lack of
    knowledge of causes, and causal knowledge, according
    to Spinoza, is expressed in a deductive system where
    ideas depend on one another logically. The bodily
    aspect of ignorance is the predominance of passive
    emotions, emotions like love and hate that reflect the
    passive reaction to things that conduce to or detract
    from pleasure or vitality. As a man's intelligence in-
    creases and his ideas begin to succeed one another
    logically, his emotions will become active, i.e., they
    will be generated by mental activity itself. He will
    pursue his own interests and seek the friendship of
    others, guided by reason alone. He will be objective,
    resolute, happy, and free of pettiness. This develop-
    ment also represents an increase in perfection and
    freedom. Spinoza speaks of freedom because, under
    man's mental and physical aspects, man will be (rela-
    tively) free of external influence, his states and activi-
    ties resulting rather from his own causal activity. His
    ideas will be the results of other ideas, and his emotions
     
    #18     Jul 27, 2006
  9. pattersb

    pattersb Guest

    and actions will be determined by his own mental
    activity. In general terms, therefore, Spinoza conceived
    of freedom as self-determinism, not indeterminism.
    The views of Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz on freedom
    are also intimately bound up with his metaphysical
    outlook. Like Spinoza, he rejected any conception of
    freedom based on the assumption that a choice is
    undetermined (philosophers often call this conception
    of freedom the “liberty of indifference”). Any choice
    is determined by a combination of nonrational factors,
    i.e., feelings, together with a rational appraisal whose
    purpose is the selection of the act that appears to be
    for the best. An act is free if the predominant compo-
    nent in its determination is the man's reason or intelli-
    gence. But, according to Leibniz' metaphysical system,
    each individual person's life is the necessary unravel-
    ling of his given nature. Thus, all acts are necessary,
    including, therefore, free acts. Leibniz may be classified
    as a “reconciliationist” because he tried to reconcile
    this metaphysical theory of necessity with his belief
    in freedom. His task was more difficult than the analo-
    gous task for reconciliationists like David Hume and
    Moritz Schlick because the latter two denied the exist-
    ence of objective necessity. In this regard, Leibniz
    distinguished necessity from compulsion, the latter, of
    course, being incompatible with freedom, and made
    distinctions among different types of necessity (meta-
    physical, moral, and physical).

    John Locke defined freedom as the power a person
    has to act in accordance with his will. Sense experience
    does not provide man with a clear idea of any power.
    So reflection, or the mind's experience of its own
    activities, is the source of all knowledge of power,
    including, of course, the knowledge of freedom. Free-
    dom is the opposite of necessity; but Locke defines a
    voluntary act as one that is preferred by the agent even
    if the act is not free, i.e., even if the act is performed
    necessarily. Will, like freedom, is defined as a power
    of a person, to wit, the power to will or to perform
    that act of preference or thought that sometimes gives
    rise to the preferred act. Since freedom and will are
    powers of persons, freedom cannot meaningfully be
    predicated of the will; hence, there is no genuine
    concept of free will.

    Locke is forced to concede, however, that the con-
    cern about free will is genuine because it is the concern
    about the freedom to will rather than the freedom of
    will. Locke initially denies this freedom on the ground
    that a man must choose some alternative in a decision-
    making situation. Realizing that the question does not
    concern the freedom to make some choice, but rather
    the freedom to make a specific choice, Locke examines
    the status of the question, “Is he free to will A?” He
    concludes that the question is absurd because the an-
    swer is a tautology. A man cannot but have it in his
    power to will what he in fact wills. Locke fails to see
    that the concern here is not with whether or not a
    man can will what he does will (since he does will
    A, he can will A), but whether or not he can will what
    he does not will. For if willing A is the only act of
    will in his power, it looks as if the act is not free in
    some important sense of “free.”

    Locke added a section on the determination of the
    will to the second edition of his Essay Concerning
    Human Understanding (1694). His psychology is
    hedonistic—man's will is always determined by a state
    of uneasiness and, given that he believes this state can
    be removed, he will act accordingly, priorities being
    determined by the relative urgencies of the uneasy
    states. Into this mechanistic picture, Locke introduced
    “free-will” as the power to prevent desire or uneasiness
    from determining the will. But this turns out not to
    be a concession to indeterminism, but rather to those
    who identify freedom with rational action, e.g.,
    Leibniz. For the interruption of the mechanical work-
    ings of the will is due to a judgment formed as the
    result of deliberation and consideration of alternative
    courses of action. Thus, a man may foresee that an
    act he would perform has an undesirable consequence
    and this judgment, rather than the uneasiness that
    would lead to the act, determines the will to refrain
    from that act. In reply to the charge that a “free-will”
    is incompatible with a determined will, even if reason
    determines the will, Locke presents his case against
    the advocates of the liberty of indifference, arguing
    that freedom cannot be conceived as the irrelevance
    of our judgments to our will. A conception of freedom
    similar to Locke's “free-will” was also advanced by
    René Descartes.

    Although the view that determinism is true and
    compatible with the existence of free will has been
    held by a number of philosophers, contemporary
    thinkers associate Hume's name, more than any other,
    with this doctrine.
    The belief that all physical events have causes such
    that a given physical event must occur if the event
    that always caused it in the past recurs is a belief that
    has equal validity in the psychological sphere. We can
    predict how any human being will behave if we have
    a complete knowledge of his motives, circumstances,
    background, etc. Since determinism is true even in
    psychology, there is no liberty of indifference. But
    Hume agreed with Locke that the existence of such
    liberty would not be worthwhile anyway. A man who
    had this sort of liberty would not be a genuinely re-
    sponsible agent. It would be pointless, for example, to
     
    #19     Jul 27, 2006
  10. Bollocks.
     
    #20     Jul 27, 2006