The Upcoming Slaughter

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Saham, Apr 5, 2004.

  1. BSAM


    Hmmmm......Let me see......Saddam Hussein invaded and decimated Kuwait, violated the terms for the end of the 1991 war for twelve years while trying to kill our pilots enforcing the no-fly zone. Mostly refused to cooperate with the WMD inspectors for twelve years. Not to mention all of his countrymen he killed and tortured all along. Hmmmmm.......I'm just NOT having such a hard time deciding who the bad guys are here.

    You're right.....History does repeat itself, particularly when you ignore its lessons. Too bad poor ol' Saddam didn't understand that cliche.
    #31     Apr 5, 2004
  2. In one of Bush Jr.'s finest moments again he uttered about Al-Sadr: "he want's to use force to direct democracy .. heh .. that's the OPPOSITE of democracy."
    I guess that reflection in the whiskey-bottle years ago didn't exactly provide some glimpse of Bush's inner self. He seems to lack any basic ability for self-reflection. What's the US giving the Iraqi people again; "freedom and democracy" by using force ?
    #32     Apr 6, 2004
  3. Saham


    BSAM... um... lemme interject something here while I am waiting for EUR/USD to fall into my favor...

    I think the author of this thread does not question our high American values that are just and right no doubt about it, what our president is trying to do in Iraq is for the good of the majority of Iraqis and for America.

    Peace, freedom, democracy, etc., is NOT being called into question here, neither are the goals of the coalition: It's all good.

    HOWEVER.... Bush's vision of changing the Middle East by changing the structure of Iraq and its people... IS A PIPE DREAM - read my lips - IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

    It's kind of like taking a guy like me, 1/2 Sicilian and 1/2 American Indian, see... putting me in a room with a gorgeous naked Italian girl... and EXPECTING me NOT to get A HARD ON and want to **** HER. It'll NEVER happen.

    Get it now?

    *reaches over and clicks a trade closed in profit*

    Our ideals and standards are fine - nothing wrong there. It is the way we are going in and killing these people's FAMILY MEMBERS that is out of line and throwing this whole thing out of balance.

    The insurgents WIN if they can just drag this thing on. The world will NOT allow blood to flow for years and years with this getting nowhere.

    Eventually, and that may be soon, the UN will step in and say to the US, "Bye bye - your way is not working. You're out of here, morons!"

    Yes, WE see them as "EVIL" - in need of extermination so the rest of the world can live without terrorists, and extremist countries. But THEY see them as their mothers, sisters, brothers, fathers and children!

    Therefore, "the plan" IS NOT WORKING. We may be better off NOT using force at this point. Kind of acquiesce and defer to the way of PEACE for a bit so that the Iraqis have time to chill out and cool down. Give them some time to make an adjustment.

    There is no immediate threat to the American people by the Iraqis now. We got Saddam out of there. There are some religious whackjobs/militant groups is all. They are more of a threat to the Iraqis than to us. But people have a way of sorting things out among their own tribes so to speak.

    If it were not so we all would have been extinct long ago at our own hands.

    Look, we can always go in and give them daisy cutter therapy. We can "WIN" this war any time we want to, and in about 6 minutes of massive firepower. We could make the place a hole in the ground if we wanted to. That is not what needs to happen at this point.

    The *cooperation* factor is at jeopardy. The more ill will we breed among these people, the worse the situation will grow.

    We can tell them, look, we are not meaning to kill ANY of your family members. Here is our goal, to help Iraq be a better society. Those among you who terrorize you - we can take them out FOR you so your families can LIVE in peace and freedom! Let them see for themselves who the good and bad guys are. You will have 95% of the PEOPLE there want our troops to come in to surgically remove the ones who are harming them and their families. We can come back as friends to the Iraqi masses, not as a huge question mark.

    In order to stop this thing from BACKFIRING on us, we may need to GET OUT of Iraq for 90 days making our intentions clear beforehand because we want to STOP their emotional suffering and mental anguish that WE ARE CAUSING.

    They are already numb to our bullets and bombs they are probably hurting so much due to family members being killed at this point they could care LESS about more deaths - they just want to DESTROY THE DESTROYERS.

    Set our troops in a bordering country on IDLE. Give the Iraqis time to SORT THINGS OUT and think it over, bury their dead and go through their grieving period.


    Not like BEASTS who need to be dealt with at the end of canons and bomb dropping jets and Apache helicopters.

    If we want THEM to treat US and the rest of the world the way THEY want to be treated we need to USE some diplomacy at this time is all I am saying. We're not going to be able to turn over power to the Iraqis in June at this rate of bad blood forming. Anything the US puts in place will be literally torn down by them.

    Now we got a guy who is considered by many to be a religious leader of the Shi'ites, who inhabit 60% of the 25 million Iraqi citizens with a warrant out for his arrest issued by one of the (presumably) post Saddam judges who will probably be assassinated within a week.

    He's held up in a religious structure that has great meaning in the Islamic religion, a mosque, in a "sit in" with his followers - armed to defend themselves in case of attack.

    It is given to the US troops and allies to serve the warrant... by wading through the midst of "10's of 1000s" of his supporters....

    Good luck with that.

    #33     Apr 6, 2004
  4. RIGHT ON!!!
    Look at the England/Northern Ireland conflict. Tell an English 15 or 20 years ago that they would start talking peace with the terrorists there and start making concessions: You would have been kicked at.

    The point is: This situation is not an Iraq conflict, no a Madrid conflict, not a Bali conflict and what have you: THIS IS A GLOBAL CONFLICT AND THEREFORE A GLOBAL PROBLEM. Also, this is not Arabs against Westerners, or Islamic people against Christian People or Jewish people. Sure, there will be always extremist in this world, even in front of our houses. Look at the shi. that happens in the US, drug dealing in middle schools, shootings, people going crazy: Japanese, for instance, do not understand the violence going on in the U.S.

    No, the point is that the obvious and ignorant attitude of many of our people in the West (politicians, business CEOs, and small Joes)towards other cultures outside our realm will not be tolerated and taken anymore. THIS IS THE POINT AND NOTHING ELSE!!!

    1) The rest of the Arab world and most people in Europe (politicians in Europe are just afraid of speaking it out due to historic concerns and lobbyist pressures) see no point in approving anymore how the U.S. backs any perceivable action of Israel, no matter how illegal and how much against any convention. People who have not gotten it: THERE WILL NEVER BE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST WITH SHARON, PERIOD!!! (This is what over 56% of Jews in Israel are thinking at the moment).

    2) People in many parts of the world are tired of being controlled of American imperialism and capitalism. This is not a story about the rich and the poor and the rich are trying to let the poor share into the wealth, although this is something many Americans think!!! People in many (not all) parts of the world despise the American way of doing business. Not all people appreciate short-term profit maximization and the sole focus on shareholder-value. Even most European countries still have laws enacted that equally value shareholders but also the outside environment AND value to employees (do not get it wrong, I am in favor of free markets, merely point out what many people in the rest of the world think). There are cultures who focus in business on long-term relationships instead of focusing on pleasing short-term speculators.

    3) Many people in the ends of this world want to be respected as any of us wants to be respected. Its fine when people in Europe or the U.S. look down on the less fortunate or less lucky guys in our countries. Its fine when we compare ourselves with each other and fight out who will be the greatest and coolest amongst us (although I personally totally disagree and am self-confident enough to not see a need to look down on anyone). BUT: Its not ok that we look down and openly show others in the rest of the world (I am not even talking about the ones who killed our people) how shitty they are and how great and advanced we are. People can argue back and forth what is good or bad about one culture or the other. But people are tired to be confronted by the big American/European monkey, who tells them how to run a business, how to run life at home, how to converse, how to enjoy entertainment, how to love, how to hate, and what have you. Man: People are made differently, period. Why this comparing all the time and showing others how bad they are and how great guys we are???

    In sum: Yes, we are dealing with terrorists in some cases and criminals. BUT: As long as we do not understand where this is coming from and why people have become extremists, we will never be able to talk but fight each other. Once we understand and respect the cultures of others and treat them in THEIR WAYS ON THEIR HOME TURF, we will also be shown respect and attacks stop. MAN: The point is that those people do not know what else to do. Who wants to commit suicide suicide and kill others at the same time? People who are desperate, who have NO OTHER CHOICE. You push other people, let them no way out, take everything that is valuable for them, then you do not need to wonder that you are getting attacked. ITS SIMPLE AS THAT.
    (It is nonesense saying that there are millions of people who want to kill Americans and Jews because they are Islamic: TOTAL nonsense. There are a handful or however you wanna quantify that number but not millions. No, millions want to live in peace BUT THEY WANT TO LIVE IN THEIR WAY NOT THE AMERICAN WAY!!!
    #34     Apr 6, 2004
  5. that we underestimate people who are different than us. We look down on the "small Chinc", "Jap", or whatever, because they behave differently, speak differently, and pursue other goals in life.

    We often focus too much on the outside: What kind of car someone is driving, in what house s.o. is living, and what kind of status symbols one is having/wearing. Its all fine. But besides that we should not overlook someone's inherent strengths. I feel that there are many who look down on others because that other person does not appear as macho, cool, strong, and on-the-outside ultra-confident as we feel we are. So what? Dude, having lived in over 12 countries and visiting over 80 countries, I can tell you that there are tons of cultures who have learned to better deal with emotions, feelings, words, and language than we have.

    Here, often its all just a show, some sort of poor show-off. You have those tough-ass guys in here who tell you to stop whining and instead drop a bomb on Palesine or Iraq. I tell you what: There are call-options on the weakness of those guys traded on the options exchange, I WILL BE THE ONE WHO BUYS THEM ALL, because I think they are grossly-inefficiently priced ;-)
    Those show-offs are most of the times the ones who cannot even deal with the death of their own grand-mother. Lol, but those are the guys who talk about nuking others? Give me a break. Also, those are the guys who tell everyone how many women they fucked. Really? Most often, they probably break down in tears when their later wife tells them what a small dick they got and that this small dick is not really making her happy. I will tell you something: Meet the biggest show-offs in this board and you will laugh at yourself and just move on. They will most probably start whining when you look straight into their eyes or seek an honest conversation without all the "dude...., cool....., its great....., how's it hangin....., I am the best......, what the fuck......": They cannot handle that: I bet!!!

    That is the problem in our culture. We have forgotten how to be ourselves and respect the person next to us and be on honest terms with each other. Instead we only compare and pretend we are that much better than all the others.

    P.S.: Do not get it wrong: I am not a gay, I am no U.S. hater, I am no liberal, no green, no whatever you think. I am a normal guy who is happily married, one child. I can be myself and do not need to compare myself with others. And I AM HAPPY WITH WHAT I HAVE!!! AND I WILL NOT NUKE SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO TAKE WHAT I HAVE (but of course I will defend it within the legal boundaries).
    #35     Apr 6, 2004
  6. I don't think this situation comes as a surprise to the soldiers or policy-makers. They knew before the invasion that the Shi'ite were the majority and that there are several radical mullahs that may be hostile to the US.

    I have faith that plans existed beforehand to deal with this contingency and that they will be carried out. One way or another, al-Sadr will be taken care of. If he's smart and not suicidal (which is probably a 50/50 proposition) he'll tone down the rhetoric; if not, and he incites more violence, he'll get to test the 72 Virgins in Heaven Theory, or, if we take him alive, perhaps exiled.

    There are always going to be radical mullahs to deal with. When they become the voice of the MAJORITY, ala Khomeini, is when we'll be in deep s**t. I don't believe the majority of the Shi'ites in Iraq - and thus the majority of the Iraqi population - want to fight us right now. Maybe that'll change after we've given them cable TV, Hooters, repaired all the oil lines and built up the infrastructure. For now they're going to take as much from us as they can.
    #36     Apr 6, 2004
  7. Saham


    Deanna Laney killed her two children and almost killed her third, youngest son.

    Yet she was deemed not guilty by reason of being insane.

    Therefore an asumption is made that by medical drugs and therapy she will be made "well".

    However, at the time of the slayings she was certain "God" was telling her to stone her young children to death. She is seen as "a deeply religious" woman.

    Now flip over to Genesis chapter 22. Here is Abraham preparing to take a knife and kill his child Isaac, offering him as a sacrifice to "God."

    Why? "God" told him to.

    I don't mean to rag on about this deal in Iraq, and I certainly don't mean to come across as if I have any solutions (if I did I'd be richer than Donald Trump).

    But I want to ask a question...

    What was more "Evil," what the Iraqis did to the corpses of their perceived enemies? Or what this mother did to her own innocent children in cold blood?

    Senator Kennedy says we need a new president clear and simple.

    Bush's admin believes his solution for Iraq will come to pass wherein every citizen will become like professional and corporate America, dressed up in suits and going off to be doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.

    And that everyone in Iraq WILL eventually be and live peaceable with each other. Each citizen will walk down their perfectly clean and tree-lined streets with a smile on their face with bluebirds circling overhead. In short, Utopia.

    I like to understand things that otherwise are the cause of people suffering, being killed and injured, so that I can avoid the same fate. War, as huge as the Iraq war, takes most our attention up daily. It is something I try to understand the reasons for and perhaps see some solution through the insanity of it.

    In order to do so, I have literally had to think in insane terms. Not such a big deal. In Deanna Laney's case, jurors had to comprehend what constituted her insanity in order to make the proper judgement as to whether or not a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity (very rare) applied to her.

    They felt it did.

    So what is going on with Iraq? If Bush's plan (to remove the dictator Saddam) was right, then the rest of the Iraqis SHOULD have already become compliant and peaceful as church goers on Sunday.

    It's been a year. Those people don't look very calm to me. They look like they are filled with religious zeal. Judging from the actions of the masses handling the 4 American contractors, well... they should not have acted like that according to Bush's "Remove the insane monster, Saddam, and the Iraqi people will automatically blossom into a carefree, sane, gentle, peaceful and loving society freed from an 'Evil,' cruel dictator" vision/plan.

    Yet, the general Iraqi population cheerfully rioting over the mutilated corpses of the 4 American contractors didn't appear to match Bush's utopian vision.

    One has to think about these things in order to come to some kind of resolve.

    Now the US, (through an Iraqi judge?) orders a warrant for the arrest of a religious leader of the Shi'ites. A man Bush's admin labels as "Evil" pure and simple.

    A question here: Will not guilty by reason of insanity in a fair and orderly trial be an option for the Shi'ite cleric?

    The cleric (presumably) believes that "God's" stance is anti-occupation, otherwise, why would "a deeply religious" man be against the occupation of Iraq?

    What are we doing away with when, in Bush's mind, the cleric is arrested and taken out of power? What will be left? Is Bush presuming that there will be NO others who will "hear from 'God'" among the Shi'ites being 60% of Iraq's population and seek to replace the cleric?

    What is Bush's plan to deal with it should there continue to arise NEW Shi'ite believers heeding the "call of God" to be anti-occupation? Will Bush order the troops to remain so that every time another of the millions and millions and millions of Shi'ites cops an attitude they will be there to arrest and punish that "Evil" one?

    Will Bush's Utopia THEN manifest? Will the Iraqi people surely be on their way to democracy and fully embrace a religious structure that is loving and peaceable, upholding American civil ways?

    Who is insane here?

    This war looks to me to be between men's concepts of "Jesus" and "Allah" and what the two stand for via interpretation of PEOPLE.

    So, we can boil this whole war down to this:

    Christianity's (and its social ideals) "Jesus" versus Islam's (and its ways of being social) "Allah."

    So it's "Jesus" versus "Allah."

    Who is insane here?

    In order to reach the vision Bush has for Iraq, the religion of Islam would have to be done away with. Let's face it, where there is this religion there will always be the possibility of extremists who feel certain they "hear from 'God.'"

    Extremists like Abraham, and Deanna Laney, for instance.

    Yet, those Bush wants to do away with don't slaughter their own children the way Deanna Laney, presumably into "Christianity," did.

    There are over a billion adherants of Islam who worship "Allah." Apparently somewhere within the heart of its doctrine lies the structure of revenge and terrorizing your enemies who attack you. Why else would the deeply religious Shi'ite cleric tell his followers to "terrorize your enemies"? Why else would they do it?

    If the revenge of "terrorism" is embedded deep within Islamic doctrine, Bush's mission to wipe out terrorism off the globe is destined to fail apart from him removing and banning the entire religion. Is it not so?

    Yet, how can one man order over 1,000,000,000 PEOPLE to cease worshipping their Allah God?

    What is the structure of an order like that? I mean, America was founded on religious freedom, its citizens are free to worship. Would this make Bush "Good" or "Evil" to use US military strength to force civilization to ban a religion?

    Yet is that not what he is doing right now, albeit on a smaller scale, with that Shi'ite cleric held up in the mosque in Iraq?

    Bush claims the world's leaders stand 100% united with him, yet I don't see anyone taking measures and necessary steps to make the religious leaders of Islam redue what can and cannot be practised, taught and believed regarding Islamic doctrine.

    Why is this?

    Innocent people are dying (being killed) every day due to this war in Iraq. So if you feel that the death and suffering of people is important, rather, the prevention of it, perhaps it's time to start addressing some of these questions.

    One last point: I am not an expert on the war in Vietnam, however, we can presume that if a president ordered American soldiers to die in order to win that war, if need be, the way Bush has ordered our military to fight the Middle East war in Iraq, that that president fully believed his cause was right.

    He believed it. However, did his belief cause our troops to WIN? Was the vision of the Vietnam's era's president right? Did the deaths serve any purpose in Vietnam? Do they serve any purpose in Iraq? Will Bush WIN in his vision to alter a religion that gives rise to terrorist extremist nations and people?

    Who is insane here?

    To be honest with you, folks, I think this Iraq deal is beginning to get to me. Every time I hear about another American getting killed or wounded in Iraq I literally cringe. I was going to be a marine. I passed the mental test, and the physical test. I just decided not to when it came to actually signing the induction papers. So perhaps I feel some kind of relation there. When this first started over a year ago I called to see if I could sign up to go fight for America in Iraq. I was informed I was too old.

    The point being... I see no light at the end of this tunnel. I do see the son of a former president who, I heard, had alcoholic problems prior to becoming president.

    As a law abiding American I have to seriously consider why I feel so... grossed out... when I hear about yet another American getting killed in Iraq DUE to the structural belief system of a president that I am starting to have reason to question the soundness of.

    I am beginning to question whether or not we have a half-baked president in power who is struggling with his own demons.

    (pls note that I was able to write this LONG post while trading forex tonight that I closed many winning trades while writing - thanks for allowing me to vent.)

    #37     Apr 6, 2004
  8. msfe


  9. Sam,
    hope you get at least the pips in Forex straight ;-)

    We would be dead by now if the world were inhibited by 1,000,000,000,000 people. Its a bit closer to 6,400,000,000.

    #39     Apr 6, 2004
  10. Saham


    Whoops, heh... guess I was transferring the number of pips I wish I could make tonight ;)

    Anyways, I was trying to indicate that there are over 1 billion adherants to Islam, not the world's total population.

    One billion is.... 1,000,000,000, right? hehe

    I know how many people there are on earth. I just have to search "world populous" on :D
    #40     Apr 6, 2004