HA! It IS whack-a-mole. Hey, maybe that is the way they should handle this war! Post to the world that the US has officially listed Fallujah as a carnival - it is now Open to the entire world - everyone can go there - every time someone comes up with a (dead) insurgent they get $50! Name it Fallujah Land. Sell tickets to support the war debt. *shakes head slowly* gsr
We have put ourselves in a very awkward situation. If we ignore this cleric, he becomes even more powerful and is positioned to seize power in post-turnover Iraq. That would mean a radical islamist regime aligned with Iran. Hard to see how that is an improvement over Saddam. He is basically the number two shiite cleric now. The senior cleric is more moderate, at least for now, and is basically cooperating with us. That could change after the handover though. I read an interesting commentary today that suggested he would turn on us after the handover and demand we leave. That would be another awkward situation. We clearly aren't leaving, so it would lead to insurrection or at least make the handover look phony. The alternative is to deal with this problem now. As this thread suggests, that would probably lead to a bloodbath, but looking at it realistically, it would probably be our single best opportunity to get rid of a lot of troublemakers at once. Of course, that would mean predator strikes, etc, not trying to do it law enforcement style and "arrest" wrongdoers. The predictable reaction in the Muslim world would be outrage, but they already hate us. They have little ability to do anything. What are their options? Finance terrorists? They're already doing that. Embargo oil? That would be an act of war or at least a strong sign that the Saudi regime was being subject to coercion by radicals. We might have to seize their oil fields to safeguard them.
Good Q, RM. Answer: No. Here's why. In Fallujah you have family members standing side by side with primative weapons in hand (knives made of goat skin handles - a present from cousin Sheikh BillyBob-Al-Muhhood; Special clubs with sharp metal spikes - a keepsake taken off someone's mother who got shot in the cheek by US troops because she was comin after 'em with hardened porcupine hide because US forces killed her beloved husband while he was sitting in his chair at home reading an Islamic religious pamphlet; Camel hair chest vest/sheilds made my hand by the wife of a resident now turned insurgent who saw his wife have her legs blown off by US troops then lay there bleeding to death slowly, who wants to go out in a blaze of glory by killing US troops and join her in heaven along with 70 virgins - hey, one can never have enough pussy, right?). These are not German soldiers. This is very different structurally: It is rooted in their religion of getting revenge. *sucks air through teeth* Sam
Exactly, and one of the best known periods of (state) terrorism is the one during the French revolution, and Robespierre is forever linked to this perverting of the state: http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/R/ReignT1er.asp http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/Robespie_ReignofTerror.asp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror Other periods include the reigns of despots like Pol Pot, Stalin and Lenin - they all used state terrorism. Now terrorism has had it's globalization with the help of technological advance and today's civilization. Terrorism has many forms - even economic, one might argue (embargos etc. - the US and others use it frequently). If one goes back further, terrorism is somehow linked to the middle east and the people there for a considerable period of time: http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?DOCID=1G1:83032543&refid=ip_encyclopedia_hf If anyone have read Orson Welles' "1984", some aspects of the society described there sounds a bit familiar today. Perhaps, mostly because of technology, but also when considering intolerance. A US general in Iraq was interviewed on CNN and said that: "if the revolt gains popularity, and the shiites and sunnies unite against the US forces, we have a fight on our hands." I guess "forced democracy" becomes a little pricey when the population turn against you. For the US (and the other occupiers) there is so little to gain, and so much to lose in Iraq, in my opinion. The oil still would reach the shore of the US, and the US taxpayer could be rid all the extra expenses.
AAA.....Excellent post! Here's some (?) of my two cents: Our best option is to get out NOW!! Iraq is no longer an "emminent threat" to the U.S. As dougcs alluded to eariler, we are in a quagmire. All the horses#%t "policy" and horses#%t rhetoric coming from the Bush administration reminds me exactly of the Johnson/Nixon Vietnam horses#%t. BUT, if we are staying, we have to use OVERWHELMING force. A people can be made to fall if enough cruelty is inflicted. We've proven this in times past. No, it's not pretty, but it's impossible to go door to door and try to figure out who is good and who is bad and who's on "our side" and who ain't and who's a threat and who ain't, etc., etc., etc.,etc. This is a war, supposedly. (I know the liberals here are going to be in an uproar.) In a war men die, women die, children die. But, when this happens on a grand scale, wars are settled. When enough damage (physical or otherwise) is inflicted, the other side stops resisting. This is simply "Life 101" I'm talking about here. It works on the playground, in the neighborhood, on the football field, in business, in law enforcement and in war. If we are going to do what Bush keeps saying he wants to do, then we must proceed FORCEFULLY and not give a DAMN what the world thinks! Otherwise, it's a lost cause from this point on and we should have already been home!
AAAintheBeltway <-- I LOVE this guy! He's a thinker! Check this out... "We have put ourselves in a very awkward situation. If we ignore this cleric, he becomes even more powerful and is positioned to seize power in post-turnover Iraq." Dude, he would become a GOD! A super Saddam. Super Saddam God. 60% (and counting) of 25 million Iraqi people would fall down and worship HIM as Allah and chant, "God save the... GOD!" ___ " As this thread suggests, that would probably lead to a bloodbath, but looking at it realistically, it would probably be our single best opportunity to get rid of a lot of troublemakers at once." LMAO! Look how the world condemned the killing of Yassin. How much more when you got 1000s of (perceived) innocents... PRAYING - just mow them down with tank-mounted machine guns? *BUSTS UP LAUGHING* Dude, the freekin planet would vaporize the USA in the open marketplace monetarily. ___ "Embargo oil?" YES! OIL! Try paying $299.99 per gallon of gas at the pumps. Our nation would STOP functioning in a heartbeat. *ahem* Nice suggestions you made though... gsr
"A US general in Iraq was interviewed on CNN and said that: "if the revolt gains popularity, and the shiites and sunnies unite against the US forces, we have a fight on our hands." If a US general in Iraq said that, maybe he should take a vacation and consider something... "A fight on our hands" is NOT what we would have. What we WOULD have is a nation setting up one humongous banquet table, popping open the menu it would read a single item: "Today's special - the hearts and balls of US and allied troops lightly sauteed in cream of goat sauce.... free." Sam
*closing my eyes and rubbing the stress from my temples* ... Dude..... listen..... " A people can be made to fall if enough cruelty is inflicted." This is true. Only, it would be our USA that would fall - and that in the world's sight monetarily (read sanctions/embargoes). ___ "When enough damage (physical or otherwise) is inflicted, the other side stops resisting." NOT so in this case. Think of it as having 30,000 acres of land. On the land is dense 5 foot high DRY shrubbery. The "when enough damage is inflicted" scenario is like pouring 100 gallons of gas onto the land then igniting it with a match and saying, "This will solve everything." The land is the Middle East. The dry shrubbery is the hearts of Allah worshippers who reside there. Hello? Unless you are suggesting that the "overwhelming force" is dropping several nuclear/atom bombs on Iraq. If you are, you can settle it in your mind - it ain't gunna happen. All the USA would do then is dig their own graves. Remember, we got 25 million PEOPLE in Iraq. Over 1,000,000,000,000 PEOPLE on this planet are Allah worshippers. It worked in Japan. Japan flew their guys over here (Pearl Harbor). Iraq did NOT fly Iraqi soldiers over here. And making the Twin Towers/9-11 connection arguement is a little... thin to warrant the slaughter of perhaps millions of faithful Allah worshipping beloved "brethren" in Iraq. Those factors combined would... not be good for the USA, trust me on this one. gsr (for the record, I am NOT an "Allah worshipper" so pls don't bomb ME - *rolling eyes*)
Gamal.....I will say this for you....You oughta be a T.V. talk show host. After all, they're usually completely wrong, too, but they sure know how to stir up a lot of doo doo!!
Insightful as always. The gauntlet has been thrown. Al-Sadr could be this generations Duke Ferdinand. I fully agree that the "inside" story is not how/when we squelch this sect but the real deal is how the Islamic world reacts. If this heats up (no pun intended) the quiet clerics in Iran or if the House of Saud gets caught appeasing/aiding militants, this whole affair goes to round two. As I've stated on this board many times before: The Shite's and Wassabi's will never give up trying to take down the West. As we become weaker, they become stronger. Our population (native whites in Eur and U.S.) is declining, Arab birthrates are soaring. Technology is giving extremists a bridge and as mentioned on this thread the West doesn't have the will to win wars the old fashioned way: utter destruction of one's enemy. I laugh. Guy's here cry about civilian casualties. We killed 300,000 Japanese in ONE DAY! Not saying that's the way to go but in war terms it's a show stopper!