You'll be alright. Try not to cry. It's a tough world. When someone points out an obvious flaw in a marketing scheme or vendor claim- the proof is self-evident. Conversely, when a vendor or shill makes a claim, they have the burden of proof, because their claims are generally outlandish, and even if they are not, it is always puzzling as to why someone would sell their secret hard earned methods for a few $$$$. It's actually logical. Vendor claims have a built in bullshit factor due to their general nature. The legit ones should have no trouble proving themselves as honest, whereas the snake-oilers will not be able to prove themselves as honest and trustworthy. It is a cruel, cruel world and I understand how it can hurt your feelings sometimes, but it's just the nature of the beast. Have fun. I hope you make a million dollars next week!
And it's the same cast of characters who do that here. My advice? Whatever conclusions you reach--positive or negative--avoid posting here. I'm sure you have better things to do then get into a pissing contest with toy soldiers over something that means nothing to you.
Looks like somebody needs a big ol' e-hug. One day when you're done playing in chat rooms and (if) you finally learn to trade for yourself...you will understand the logic behind it all. Best of luck on that.
Actually I'm pretty impartial allenhobs (despite what people on this very small website may or maynot believe), and I've gone out of my way to support you in your Journal. But the fact of the matter is that Reaver is absolutely correct. The burden of proof lies with the Vendor to prove that their system works and is profitable. Consistent posting of screen shots/brokerage statements, for the duration of their advertising scheme on Elite Trader, with a full-audit by an impartial third party on a quarterly basis*, would suffice. This should be a pre-requsite for anyone in the business of selling their trading system, but unfortunately it is not. Otherwise it may be assumed, and can be inferred, that the Vendor is a barely break-even trader, if that. And that the only reason they are taking on subscribers is so that they can earn a living in this business. * Just like every other "legititmate" business.
Thanks. BTW, its allenhobbs, not allenhobs. This whole vendor discussion has been done over and over again at ET and it doesn't belong in this thread, but such is the way of a meandering discussion. So I'll throw in my bit of off topic opinion. There is no burden of proof for vendors to do anything. The burden is on the customer to conduct a thorough due diligence analysis before buying anything. If the vendor doesn't satisfy the customer than there is no sale. It's that simple. I also don't like gross generalizations (just like I don't like racial stereotypes) about whether or not vendors make money trading. Most, like ALL traders, don't; but I'm sure some do. If the vendor is a CTA who manages accounts, discovering his track record is easy.
You're welcome, and I look forward to you proving your case on your Journal ... and anyone who wants to support any number of these vendors should feel free to do the same. GL
Are you implying my Journal's results support a vendor or his claims? That's not my purpose or intention. I don't endorse any vendor.
Hey I just noticed your journal. That's very interesting and inspirational. Best of luck! Are you posting your trades in advance? Thanks. Best of luck, have a good weekend.
Lol, I won't, no more tears left, my lacrimal glands are exhausted. I consider myself to be a pretty sceptical and cynical person, but I have also had a few positive encounters in the trading world that made a lasting impression on me. Yes, there actually are profitable traders out there that share their methodology with others for $$$, hard to believe for me, too ! Those people, however, don't make any unrealistic claims and don't promise anything. If you lent me two million, I could turn them into one million in no time, I have several methods for this at hand. Of course, I would have to charge. Just PM me.
<i>... it is always puzzling as to why someone would sell their secret hard earned methods for a few $$$$. * This should be a pre-requsite for anyone in the business of selling their trading system, but unfortunately it is not.</i> If someone offers a system for sale, a true system by definition, that is all absolutely true. A "trading system" by definition is outlined by specific trade entry, trade management and trade exit rules. It is black & white, defined. A system is objective and able to be replicated by everyone / anyone who follows it. Therefore, a track record should be compiled that follows all objective signals and management rules. There are numerous courses available that do not profess to teach or disclose any "system" or secret, hard-earned methods which can be legitimately overwhelmed by overuse. A lot of people market offers that are basically how to read the tape. How to interpret price action. Some are oscillator based, some are volume based, some are price sentiment based (tick, trin, vix, put/call, adv/dec) while others are price action based (trendlines, simple and exotic patterns). Those offers cannot be quantified in black & white results. There is no black & white rules as a system would require, because a true system is merely price interpretation defined by strict rules. ** Countless times here I've seen posters tout how reading a few books and watching charts for x-amount of time is sufficient to learn this profession. That is true. I agree that approach will work, in time. What is not stated is how much money most aspiring traders will blow out while learning the ropes "cost free". There are long-standing threads in this very forum where people have tried to follow supposed "methods" and never made one dime in years... some followers have lost real money for years instead. What was the true cost of such "free" education? No one will ever save any money by learning on their own from square one thru the school of hard knocks. My tuition to that college was easily a steep five-figures while I figured things out. Simple things, now that I look back in hindsight. Funny how none of my own discoveries happened with massive gains as a bonus. It was usually stiff losses that ingrained the lesson, often more than once. I'm on record for years now saying that attempting to follow live trades in a live room is pure folly, a detriment to learning independence and it never works out for anyone, period. However, some people learn from live room observation, some learn from live room participation, some regress while following live rooms. We're all different. Some people spend their day inside a live room, others spend their day making 15 - 25 posts inside chatrooms instead. Same amount of energy and focus on topics that (usually) pertain to trading, applied in different manners. No difference there. The truth? There are no secrets in our profession. There are no super-traders who fire up the screens and kill it every day, emotionless and machine efficient. Traders either play the counter-trend game and skew their trade management to that, or they play the trend following game and skew management accordingly. In either case, tape reading skill is mandatory. "Skill" is defined by learned experience over the course of time... lots of time in most cases. Anyone who has the ability to read charts via any semblence of method and desire to teach others is free to do so. The ES alone traded 3+ million contracts on Friday between the bells. I don't think anyone teaching market profile (for example) while someone else teaches channel breaks and a third teaches MACD zero-line cross that all happen to overlap signals at 1300.50 are going to overwhelm the market. No opinion on what TZ here or anyone else does myself. Nor do I personally care. I have enough to worry about and focus on when the tapes are running for real. I do recall visiting this thread several months ago, thought it rang a bell but had forgotten all about it. Guess the topic has a half-life here. Bottom line is, we all pay a $$ price to get good at this profession. Mine was painfully steep, but I was a slow learner inhibited by my own pitfalls. I found that the more open-minded and less judgemental I forced myself to be, the better my results soon followed. ** Learn to read the charts, time price turns deftly or catch pullbacks with directional moves. Cut losses short, let winners run. Stop trading "too soon" while you're comfortably ahead. Don't give it all back once you made it. Those are the secrets to trading. It really is that simple in the end. Have a great weekend