i post this again from 'flow in sports' because i feel the conversation has again moved around to it. i agree that neutrality is best IF you want to a maintain performance level, but not if you want to significantly better it, and that continuous correct performance without strong desire to expand produces emotional neutrality on its own anyhow. ============== Move Beyond The Comfort Zone A fear of failure holds some people back from embracing challenge and improving their skills. Challenge involves the risk of not succeeding. Complacency may be a symptom of the fear of failure; for some individuals, complacency occurs because of their preference for staying within the comfort zone of performance. While comfort and ease may be appropriate when sport is used as a form of relaxation, they do not make a good mind-set for athletes trying to achieve new skill levels or improve. It is not possible to go forward while seeking to maintain a comfortable feeling about performance. ==============
quite so fasterpussycat. darkhorse, you are soooo interesting. Also interesting how threads MAY morph into something constructive where others contribute. All Publias can do now it seems is get 'precious' and run home with his football every 2 minutes.
IMO intuition is not innate, I don't believe people are just born with a sense of whether the market is going to go up or down (and even if they were they still may not ever turn the corner). Inuition is something that is acquired thru experience, knowledge, and a whole lot of sweat. Anybody who comes into this game and cleans up for a short period of time trading his gut, without prior experience or knowledge of the markets just got plain lucky............. My risk management, position sizing, and set-ups are all mechanical in nature, but the decision to pull the trigger on a set-up is discretionary. That is where the art, the intuition, The Tao comes in...... Commisso- August, 21 2001
Publias: Wait a minute, dude. You were going well with your truth about results in the micro level versus results in the macro level. Mark Douglas refers to one of the fundamental truths about trading: "You don't need to know what's going to happen next to make money". I would like to know how you have integrated or experienced this truth, if that's the case, in your trading. Logic and reason would tell us to find a system, a pattern or edge that 'works' and play them on the charts as they show up. However, at a functional level, or at the 'hard right edge', that just doesn't seem to work because 'cognitive illusions' tend to interfere with the process of 'objectively' identifying those patterns. Moreover, at the 'hard right edge', we never know what the outcome of a single trade will be. And to go past this hindrance, we have to put ourselves in a state of 'not having to know' what's going to happen next, so that we can focus on the now moment. Therefore it would appear that we have a duality here: if we put ourselves in a carefree state of mind, where we don't have to know what's going to happen next, we will have the very mindset to stay focused in the now moment and perceive the opportunities she is making available to us. On the other hand if look for 'opportunities' in the process, trying to know what's going to happen next, we will end up being 'fooled by randomness'. At a functional level, or at the right edge, it means we would have to take every trade, embracing risk, winners and losers, in the micro level, without reflection, so that we can have the benefit of a carefree state of mind to stay focused on the now moment. As a result opportunities will appear in the macro level, in the form of consistent results. Please let me know what you think. PEACE and good trading, Adonias
I still have to largely disagree with you. Other than the initial "desire" to begin some endeavor or to improve one's performance of this endeavor of what benefit is "fear" or "anger" or "delight" or "pain" applied to your objective assessment of the facts and theory? Let's say I'm cruising along with a consistent p&l and I decide to attempt to further refine my "system", how in the world could anger help me here? Or delight? In what possible way could I evaluate the facts with more objectivity while in ANGER. Or a state of FEAR? Emotions COLOR objectivity rendering it less objective by DEFINITION! AND less objectivity equates with a loss of PERCEPTION! AND alas this leads to increased chaos and less resolution NOT more. AND, ipso fatso, increased fuzziness means that your trading models will be less precise and complete and ultimately your performance will suffer. This is my position. And I believe to be more or less an accurate depiction of reality in a very general way of course. FasterPussycat
You know, I thought my fine young boy was trading stocks. That is what he told me anyways. Now I find out you young people are trading MODELS? Well I hope it is in the capacity of talent agents, and you are not in some kind of sick slave trade. And this Fasterpussycat person has some kind of twisted fascination with porn Porn with ANIMALS! Then he or she talks about how his or her "performance will suffer" ....what's up with this? Talks about his or her "positions". He (or she) is so disgustingly graphic. I find it all sooooo offensive!!! And "Ipso Fatso". A repugnant gansta rapper. What ever happened to clean cut entertainment like Guy Lombardo? Or Lawrence Welk, Or Mitch Miller? Or Lenny Bruce? Behave! All of you!! MrSubs' Mom
Faster: I agree with your position in terms of what you just wrote. That's one of the things that makes a good debate so cool. Rabbit trails, doublebacks and new interpretations can lead to interesting places. Emotion does not come to the aid of logic, this is true. Objectivity is indeed the desired state of mind for the trader. But a trader who can trust his well honed instincts is far better off than a trader who cannot. And oftentimes our base instincts alert us in the raw form of what, drum roll please.... Furthermore 1) Can we ever truly put emotion aside? 2) Can the subconscious mind be tricked? 3) Do properly harnessed emotions add value to trading/life? 4) Is desire not an emotion? Are we not inert without desire? The trading state you describe in negative terms- having decisions colored by emotions run amok all willy nilly, is most definitely a bad state to be in. I agree wholeheartedly there. It is bad to let emotions influence you in an uncontrolled way. What you describe is like the fireman who does not have control of the firehose and so it is jerking him all over the place. The subtle point I am trying to make, and it's a very subtle one I am realizing, is that I think we should be wary of trying to manipulate our emotions as opposed to the superior method: utilizing them as good and useful signals and seeking the desired state of calm through deep knowledge integration. ok, lemme try an analogy: Two guys are sitting on a mountain top, taking in the splendor. The first guy made it up after a grueling four day hike. The second guy jumped in a helicopter, took a scenic tour, and made it up in an hour. Which one of those guys has learned and grown? Which one of them saw more gain from their experience? Now we look at two traders in front of their screens on a hectic trading day. Both are equally serene, both are equally peaceful, neither of them are letting emotion color their decisions. The first trader is peaceful and serene because he knows exactly what is going on. He has made no attempt to manipulate his emotions, his emotions are calm because like a good marine he knows the terrain and thus there is no reason for red flags to arise. His peace of mind comes from the fact that he knows every nook and cranny of his mind, his methodology and his market at that time. His emotions are cool and calm because he fully understands the situation and it took a lot of blood and sweat and tears to develop that sense of understanding. He also maintains a heightened state of readiness so that if something seems off his emotions can alert him to it, like the hidden tripwire around base camp. The second trader is peaceful and serene because he has read a lot of stuff about inner calm and not being buffeted by the waves of the market. He does not understand nearly as much as the first trader does, because he took the helicopter to the top. His methodology is working pretty decently (so far) and so he sees no need to delve into the nuts and bolts nitty gritty. His emotions tend to flare up on him whenever he loses direct control of them, but overall the chants and the tapes are working pretty good at creating a sense of oneness and peace and inner harmony. When things go wrong, they tend to hit him a little harder because signals have to get through the barrier before his neural cortex gets a warning buzz- so he works harder at blissing out when this happens, and his improvements are a few steps behind if existent at all. Both climbers are basically in the same place. Both traders are basically in the same place. But are they really? What happens when they decide they want to advance? The first trader has learned to embrace his emotions and thus has their power at his disposal when he wants to make use of them. The second trader has learned to stuff his emotions into a sack and thus cannot make use of them without fear of losing control when he opens that sack. The first trader is integrated and in tune; the second trader is conflicted and removed. So here is what I am saying: seek serenity and objectivity, sure. But do so through real understanding, not artificial conditioning. Don't try to calm your emotions through mental exercises, calm them through true advances in understanding. Right perception leads to right action leads to right attitude flowing naturally. Want to be more comfortable with the markets? Learn the markets. Want to more comfortable with yourself? Learn yourself. No shams, no fuzz, no ohms. When it comes down to it, its the gloppy goop neither here nor there that makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Also: I don't know if Einstein got mad, but I bet he got tired. I bet he got sick of thinking and thinking and thinking and sometimes wanted to hang it up. I'm sure he had his share of critics throwing mud at him too, 'look at that stupid dreamer, he's just a swiss patent clerk who can't even match his socks.' He was driven by his curiosity no doubt, but driven- i.e. desire- was key. It takes balls to take on the world, to challenge the establishment. It takes fire in your gut to step up to the plate like that. Or look at Thomas Edison, who tried and failed ten thousand times to get the light bulb right. Or Abraham Lincoln, the classic case of failure failure failure turned success. If those guys had turned off their emotions, wouldn't they have turned off their desire as well? This is why I'm saying that when all the pieces are in place, emotions become your friend and not your enemy. My trading days are by and large peaceful not because I foist an artificial peace on myself, but because I've worked hard to understand the situation and when things are cool and rolling smooth, I'm cool and rolling smooth. When things are going wrong or if I'm screwing up, I get a warning light on the dashboard that tells me to retrench and regroup. As it should be. And when I need to reach down deep and get some rocket fuel, I can do so without having to snap out of a complacency haze first. I can let my true self shine through first, last and all the time. Just keep it real mcsqueal
I attempted to honor Publias's request and I ceased writing on this thread. However, I just reread it. I have this to say. Publias I have a problem with how you dealt with my statements. You took part of my statements out of context and misrepresented my positions. You made me a strawman and that is a cheap rhetorical trick. You had no idea of what I was talking about and you did not even realize I was trying to get a discussion going by giving you a softball. The questions was how can you say actions have no consequences if you ever created a child. It did not mattter that you never had a child, it was only brought to show you that on a macro level you quotes were b.s.-- but I thought you would give us a good explanation of your "reality". For an intelligent debater that was a softball. Now you did not even come close to understanding my reference to zen mastery and surfers. So please stop mentioning me and my arguments. You did not engage them nor understand them. You asked me off your thread so I left then you smeared me. Someday I hope your journey takes you to Darkhorse's deep understanding--- but you will have to open you mind and your heart. The Dow Jones of Jem
Jem what can I say? You came across angry and offensive with your posts... You sound like someone who tried to apply certain eastern concepts to their professional tennis career (or whatever sport it was) fell short with both and are now out to prove everybody who embraces these concepts wrong... I was simply not interested in being proven anything! BUT It may have just been my perception that was off, so I invite you back to the thread to ask any questions you would like about anything that I have written or quoted on this site or thread... BUT and this is a big but... I do not want this to turn into a religion thing or an east/west thing so whatever you ask or state make sure it is in the context of trading! We can discuss anything in regards to what I have written or posted or anything on eastern flavors and how I apply it to trading... All my posts will be made before/after market hours so ask away! I will PM you a copy of this and I await your posts! Publias
Darkhorse, I read your above post and I must say that I agree 1000% with what you are saying... BUT What about the guy who develops a sense of inner peace as a direct result of the game itself... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I started playing FT in the summer of 97' after swing trading all through 93-97... I was successful throughout this time applying the "CANSLIM" method in a bull market... I had enough of a trading stake to attempt to do this FT when I graduated HS... I came out and was pretty much profitable from day 1 on a multi-day TF... From fall of 97 to Jan of 99 I was profitable BUT anything but consistently profitable as my emotions swung wildly with my equity curve... I would make alot and end up giving most back as a result of psychological hindrances... Toward Feb of 99' shit just started to click, I graduated from the boom and bust cycle and learned how to keep the oney I had known how to make all along... In early 2000 I remember looking for a copy of a Carlos Casteneda book at a local bookstore when I just happened to pick up a copy of The Tao Te Ching... Flipping through the pages I remember looking at it and saying to myself that this shit is ridiculous... Then all of a sudden I saw a line that said "Those who think they know; DON'T and those who know they don't know; DO" This one line rung true to me in regards to the game of trading... I picked up two translations of the books and then they sat on my shelves for a few months basically unread because I just simply could not get it... I also had a few copies of a few Zen books from D.T Suzuki and a copy of 'Zen and the art of archery' that I picked up for a buck each (to this day best buck ever spent) at a used book store... I read kinda read them but really did not get them... Then I remember reading Douglas and could not stop comparing this wonderful book on trading psychology to the teachings of the east... Then I remember picking up 'The Intuitive Trader' (which has very eastern flavor) by Koppel... The more I dove into Douglas and the Zen and Tao books the more the ish kept echoing the same exact themes... Douglas, Koppel and the markets were like translators for Herrigel, Suzuki, and Lao-Tzu... The more I traded the more the game and the teachings kept reflecting ecahother... Once I started to get really good at the game this ish really started to make sense to me... See for me at least it was not pick up a few Zen and Taoist books and then try to apply this ish to the market... The market is what drove me to them and the game was the only way I was able to penetrate these teachings... I had already become a solid trader by the time I came to Lao-Tzu and the teachings of the east BUT these teachings truly propelled me into a higher understanding and appreciation for both the game of life and trading.... The best and for some the only way to experience Zen and Taoist wisdom is through a direct medium... Most Zen Masters would not even take on a student unless he was to be taught through a craft, such as Archery, martial arts, flower arrangement, Tea ceremony, etc etc etc In short Dark I AGREE WHOLE HEARTEDLY that to embrace this wisdom and the apply it to the market without the sweat and tuition that the game demands is futile to say the very least... I would never tell a newbie trader to embrace this and then apply it to the market... They will have to come to understand it through the market and the game itself for any of it to have value... I would be the first to say that it will only get in the way! It would be like trying to run before learning to walk, one will only stumble over themselves... I have actually for this very reason been trying to avoid going further with someone who keeps asking me more questions about this stuff because I know he does not have an edge or enough experience trading (sorry buddy you know who you are) If you liked 'Mastery' and 'Zen and the art of poker' than our views on trading are in complete and utter harmony whether you realize it or not... I posted to Faster a quote from the movie the matrix about the spoon boy... You cannot bend the spoon, it will be you that must bend... Anyway that is my story on how I came to embrace the wisdom of the east... PEACE and good trading, Publias BTW; Dark the above quote from 'flow in sports'... Have you read anything else from Mihaly???