The Stock Market is for Suckers:

Discussion in 'Trading' started by capmac, Mar 9, 2006.

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  1. capmac


    The Stock Market is for suckers…

    By Mark Cuban

    I wanted to respond to Tom Hawks comments. Someone i respect a lot, but who i disagree vehemently on this topic.

    Tom I stand by what I said. You can have as long a term horizon as you want, but like most other long term plans we have, most peoples lives dont match up to their “horizons”. Its amazing how life intervenes. Kids, whatever. its a fortunate few that can just shell it away and never touch it. Your “horizon” hits a dead end when you have to put money into a checking account. I have never seen any investing research that deals with random withdrawls that represents real world. And boy oh boy, if life hits you hard when the market is down, you make a withdrawl and you wont ever catch up.

    But thats just the start of the problem. Lets say you buy into what the brokerages and funds are selling. Buy and hold, or whatever. How do you pick from the 17k funds ? By reading some websites ? By talking to some friends ? By watching the commercials ? By selecting among the options your company gives you in their plan ? Which of course was the result of a salespitch that the fund company put together to the person offering the plan to your company. Everyone is getting paid on the gravy train, except for the guy putting in the money at the end.

    Wall Street has done an AMAZING job of creating conventional wisdom . “Buy and Hold ” is the 2nd most misleading marketing slogan ever, after the brilliant “rinse and repeat” message on every shampoo bottle. We as a country have fallen for it. Every message from every marketer of stocks tell us. Young or old, if you can hold for the long term, things will work out for you.

    That is total bullshit. Its for suckers.

    Ive traded stocks for almost twenty years now. IM good at it. When i work at it. And it takes a lot of work. Not just reading all the 10K/Qs and corporate websites and product managers, or talking to people at the outskirts of the company where management doesnt reach. It takes often knowing the market for a company’s product better than the company does. After all just because a company is public doesnt mean a thing other than someone has , and continues to make money buying and selling the stock as their own product.

    If you are going to trade stocks, you just have to follow one rule and remember one thing. That rule is always have a definite knowledge advantage about the company you are trading, and always remember that every stock transaction has a sucker, and you have to know whether its you or the person on the other side of the trade. No one buys a stock from your, or sells one to you knowing they are leaving money on the table.

    The bottom line is that unless you plan on making it a full time job to do your research and put yourself in a position to have an advantage, you are going to get your ass kicked at some point by someone who does. You just have to hope that it doesnt put a big financial hurt on you when it happens

    The same logic applies to funds. Funds are in the business of making money for themselves first. You 2nd.

    First check what the heads of some public mutual funds are making. Someone help me out, I cant find the link right now .Was it Mario Gabelli who not only paid himself more than his fund earned for its shareholders in a year (forget the people with money in his funds), but he was paying himself from like 3 companies at the same time ? Get me the links and I will update them here.

    Then you should check the turnover of fund managers some day. You know where the good ones go ? To start or manage their own funds.

    Then there is the portfolio turnover. How often they completely turn over the stocks in their fund. last numbers I saw was that on average funds turnover their portfolios 85pct every year. Thats not investing. Its fund managers doing whatever they can to beat their peers, knowing that if they dont, they are out of a job. Their bosses know that if they dont beat their peers, the money flows out, and that is a HUGE problem for any fund. So many funds take chances they shouldnt, with your money . We never see any headlines for funds that close. Why is that ? We never see any headlines for fund managers who get fired. Why ?

    But even if performance sucks, rather than saying how bad it is, they pick the short stint when it wasnt so bad. Forbes did a nice job reviewing this little marketing habit of funds and referencing some manager turnover issues at Fidelity.

    As far as ETFs. Which one ? Remember, the Dow and S&P are marketing tools. They change the indexes. Look at the stocks in there today, vs what was in there in years past. You are not buying a passive investment that tracks the economy. You are buying the stock pickers at those respective indexes. Last time I looked, both Dow Jones and McGraw Hill are for profit companies. They want people to think their DJ 30 & S&P 500 indexes are powerful indexes that can be reported daily as a reflection of market action. So they change the stocks when they think they need to. To help them with their product.

    Ive said a lot of this before. The stock market is by definition a ponzi scheme. As long as money keeps on coming in, then there is someone to take the stocks from the sellers. If the amount of money coming in is reduced, the stocks, indexes, et al go down. What if, for who knows whatever reason, the amount of money going into stocks declined significantly ? Who would buy stock from the sellers. I mean goodness gracious, you could see something disastrous happen. Like the Nasdaq dropping from 5000, to under 2000 in just a few years. Its happened before, it can happen again.
  2. it is for suckers most of the times,

    The market is a ponzi scheme most of the times,

    but ponzi schemes can be profited off of

    you know where you are in the ponzi, takes awhile to figure that part out first of all :)
  3. pbw


  4. cuban should stick to what he knows.

    :D :D :D

  5. dextel


    News, P/E ratios, research mean nothing...

    Only the reaction of the market to any of the issues above matters. Charts don't lie, people do.
  6. wrong, wrong, WRONG...
    I "met" Cuban in a trading forum 6 years ago....just before he his was purchased by Yahoo. He's a heckuva trader. Had sense to hedge his "locked-out" shares to retain his great profit.
    Never underestimate Cuban...until your net worth exceeds his.
  7. cuban is a smart guy, but he is wrong

    it is NOT a ponzi scheme

    companies grow in value

    the underlying basis for the worth of a stock is the company beneath it

    so, it is not a ponzi scheme. because these companies have intrinsic value and that transcends the short term pump and dump nature of trading

    don;'t get me wrong. i intraday scalp the YM (and Nikkei) a pure zero sum game

    the stock market on the whole though, sees built wealth, through companies building wealth.

    a nice, diversified portfolio is an amazing thing. don't even have to stick to the USA, or solely to stocks (spice it up with some commodities and some bonds and stuff)

    but it is NOT a ponzi scheme.

    our economy has grown immense wealth in the last 100 yrs

    the stock market reflects that.

    anybody who doesn't take advantage of that is crazy.
  8. Exactly, if XOM is a ponzi scheme I'll take all the shares when they go to 0, thanks. I could use the 30 billion a year in profits.

    BTW, remember Cubans attempt at competing with Trumps apprentice...what a disaster. :p
  9. capmac


  10. Traber


    Interesting read. Thanks for posting
    #10     Jul 11, 2008
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