Recognize the garb of the Orthodox Jews in the foreground? <img src=http://novalight.org/JewsAgainstZionism.jpg> Man, you are such a myopic tool...
And? So there is a small sect of ultra-orthodox jews who believe that only the Messiah, not the UN can lead the Jews to Israel. They also hugged Ahmadinejad. What does it have to do with this discussion?
Really? Cause I was under the impression that hatred and violence are practiced today by Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah and Fatah Islam in Lebanon, Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and all over the world, sunnis and shias in Iraq...all in the name of Prophet Mohammad. Thanks Z10 for setting me straight, I should have known better, the hatred and violence in the world have nothing to do with the Koran, it's all about the "Antique Testament".
Either you are playing stupid, or you are stupid, but the net result is still stupid. Duh...so some guy in some group was carrying something... If you don't see how stupid your post was that I responded to with the proof that many Jews don't agree with your position, then you are not only stupid but foolish as well. It is estimated that as many as half the world's truly Orthodox Jews are not supportive of Israel's policies and/or Zionist violent actions. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/08-Israel/section-7.html See the thing is, you couldn't do anything than wet your pants if a truly Orthodox Jew came onto this forum and started to have a discussion with you about Israel's aggressive and violent policies, because they would begin to quote their scriptures, not just chapter and verse, but meaning of their Holy books of peace, and all you ever do is rationalize violence... So you are a secular supporter of secular Zionist Jews who by the accounts of more than a small sect, say that the actions of Zionism are in opposition to the spirit and text of the books which are the foundation of Judaism. You are as bad as the Muslims who rationalize their hatred by improperly taking what is a spiritual Doctrine (I know you don't understand what that means) and rationalize violence in the name of God, the same God of Abraham. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/136/story_13658_1.html You know, I take issue with Christians, primarily the fundamentalist types...simply because most aren't truly walking the path of Christ, primarily the wealthy leaders. I would never take issue with any Christian who had fully renounced violence and greed, and was lifelong engaged in the practice of love, forgiveness, and acceptance that their Master taught them... Truly Orthodox Jews at least are walking the walk.
You are living proof of the hatred that Jews express toward Muslims, and have repeatedly endorsed the use of violence by Israel. So, I don't know what Bible you are reading, but it sure as hell doesn't teach forgiveness, acceptance, and love thy neighbor...
You're certainly exaggerating the numbers of anti-zionist orthodox jews and you're completely misrepresenting their position. First of all they are an extremely small fraction of orthodox jews and orthodox jews are a small fraction of the world's jewish population. They are a tiny sect (or a couple of sects) representing less than 1% of the world Jewry. As far as their position is concerned - it's much closer to the position of the rest of the jews than what you're trying portray. It has nothing to do with violence, settlements, occupation and similar nonsense. Your own link shows that "they firmly believe in the jewish right to Israel", the difference is they don't believe people (jews or gentiles) can give Israel back to the jews and are willing to wait indefinitely for divine intervention until the arrival of the jewish Messiah who is expected to arrange the relocation of jews to Israel. Their beliefs have nothing in common with your or muslim beliefs that Israel should never exist as a jewish state and they are still fanatical religious idiots with medieval beliefs. Neturei Karta (Aramaic: נטורי קרתא, "Guardians of the City") is a tiny group of Haredi Jews who oppose Zionism and call for a peaceful dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta What part of "tiny group" do you not understand? And yes, I am aware that there are a few more similar groups world-wide and that they are equally tiny.
This was coupled with the emergence of socialist Jewish nationalism, or Zionism, as a widely accepted, secular Jewish philosophy. Until that time, the Zionists were a small but vocal minority among the Jewish population of Eastern Europe. Suddenly, they experienced a tremendous growth, since settlement of the Land of Israel seemed to offer a viable response to the anti-Semitism that was still prevalent in Europe. The Haredi traditionalists had long rejected Zionism, partly because it was a predominantly anti-religious movement. Now, suddenly, the secular Zionists were in the process of achieving their goal of a Jewish homeland. Meanwhile, unable to return to their old homes in Europe and with quotas on Jewish immigration in the United States, a Jewish homeland had necessarily become in some cases the only option for Haredi Jews. In effect, they were suddenly at the mercy of their most bitter opponents. However, they were not without their own leverage, including the sensitive fact that the longest-standing Jewish settlements in Palestine were, in fact, Haredi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism You are quite right that Zionism is one among many consequences of secularisation. It appeared at first as a paradox. For, while it claimed to be a force for modernization against the dead weight of tradition and history, it idealized the biblical past, manipulated the traditional symbols of religion, and proposed to transmute into reality the millennia-long dreams of the Jews. This transfer of the concept of redemption from the exclusive domain of God to that of worldly political action, incarnated for many Jews in the Napoleonic reforms, constituted a break with tradition that was to be echoed a century later in Zionist ideology. Zionism has been much more successful than other movements in consolidating the achievements of secularisation, in forging a new identity. Many Jews of the former Soviet Union enthusiastically developed a strong Soviet identity. Yet, once the Soviet ideology began to decay, many of them came to embrace the Zionist identity. When the Soviet Union collapsed altogether, it became the most common pillar of identity for the Soviet Jews, whatever their choice of abode. The same happened with the Bund, whose Jewish People's Schools no longer teach socialism, let alone the ideas of the movement's staunch opponents of Zionism, but rather instil a soft Zionist identity in their charges. A striking example of the way in which Jewish nationalism came to substitute for Judaism was the call issued by a young Jew to Vladimir Jabotinsky (1880-1940), a Russian author and Zionist leader: "Our life is dull and our hearts are empty, for there is no God in our midst; give us a God, sir, worthy of dedication and sacrifice, and you will see what we can do." The response came swiftly, and took its inspiration from the mass movements that were then appearing in many European countries: Betar, a disciplined youth organization that was able to mobilize tens of thousands of Jewish young people throughout Europe. Zionism put forward a new definition of what it means to be Jewish. The secular Jewish identity developed largely in the Russian Empire. The new concept eliminated the religious - and thus normative - dimension of Judaism and retained only its biological and cultural dimensions. Unlike the Reform movements in Central and Western Europe, or the Reform synagogue, which, though it modifies Judaism does not abolish it, the Jewish reform movements of Eastern Europe sought to eliminate every notion of religious responsibility. This is one of the reasons why Zionism, rather ineffective among the Jews in Central and Western Europe, attracted the Jewish masses mostly to the East of the Vistula. Many secular Jews have recognised that Zionism and the State of Israel offer them a particularly propitious milieu for maintaining their identity. In most other countries, the Judaic framework, however diluted, would remain the main pole of Jewish identity. The upsurge of Jewish nationalism in Europe is a relatively recent development for the continent. Zionism and the state of Israel have profoundly altered the self-image of many Jews, as well as the image they project to the world. In this sense, the break is much more thorough than in any other group whose elites - in their hopes of preserving the people - have aspired or acceded to independence. But the Jewish paradox remains instructive: in the attempt to preserve the people, the people itself has changed so much as to become unrecognisable, in addition to emerging as a source of chronic military conflict. The Torah speaks to the Jews as a pilot population, whose example should instruct, inspire and influence all humanity. It stands only to reason that the controversy fired by Zionism bodies forth lessons for peoples other than the Jews. This may explain the interest my book elicited in so many countries and cultures. It is rather unusual for a book published in French in Quebec to be translated into six languages, with a few more on the way. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerGuest.jhtml?itemNo=796902 Last November, those who remembered it at all, celebrated the 59th anniversary of the Partition Resolution. A majority of the member-states of the United Nations decided on November 29, 1947 to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. A minority objected. Significantly, this minority included the Arab inhabitants of the region where the State of Israel was to be established. Their hostility to the Zionist project has not subsided in spite of the recognition of Israel by several Arab states. The recent commemoration of the Palestine Solidarity Day around the world is a good reminder. What is less known is that many of Palestine's traditional Jews objected to the Zionist project even more resolutely, and their opposition has also refused to go away. Many Jews feel angry when they see Neturei Karta members shake hands with the leader of Iran or demonstrate on New York's Fifth Avenue against the very existence of the State of Israel. Indeed, Jewish opposition to Zionism has often provoked more anger than debate. It is to stimulate debate (and hopefully to assuage anger, which is never a good advisor) that I have written a book, which initially appeared in French under the title Au nom de la Torah (In the Name of Torah). This year it has come out in English as A Threat from within: a Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism (Fernwood/Zed Books). Was it worth the effort? Curiously perhaps, both Zionist intellectuals and the orthodox rabbis who oppose them agree that Zionism represents a negation of Jewish tradition. Yosef Salmon, a fellow historian working in Israel, writes: "But it was the Zionist threat that offered the gravest danger, for it sought to rob the traditional community of its very birthright, both in the Diaspora and in Eretz Israel, the object of its messianic hopes. Zionism challenged all the aspects of traditional Judaism: in its proposal of a modern, national Jewish identity; in the subordination of traditional society to new life-styles; and in its attitude to the religious concepts of Diaspora and redemption. The Zionist threat reached every Jewish community. It was unrelenting and comprehensive, and therefore it met with uncompromising opposition." Judaic opposition to Zionism may seem negligible today. Many secular Jews have come to see in Israel the only hope of survival for the secular Jewish identity. Many Orthodox Jews have also embraced the Zionist worldview, even though their embrace remains circumstantial and emotive. They would be reluctant to question the authority of a Chofetz Chaim or a Baba Salé, a Satmarer Rebbe or a Lubavitcher Rebbe, all of whom articulated strenuous opposition to Zionism and its reliance on military force. In terms of sheer numbers, Judaic anti-Zionism remains modest; the majority of Jews are unaware of the Judaic concerns that motivate it. But it is not merely the longevity of this opposition that makes it significant. In our history, rigorous minorities tend to become triumphant majorities. This is why is it is important to understand the origins and intentions of this opposition. After all, today, the secularized majority of the Jewish people most surely would appear marginal in relation to the continuity of Jewish life, as it has been lived for more than three thousand years. I have presented my book (which is now available in six languages) in over a dozen countries, and it has truly surprised me that such a broad range of readers - Jewish and non-Jewish, religious and non-religious - found this topic fascinating. Many told me that they had long wondered if it was right to confuse Judaism and Jews with what they read and watch in the media about Israel. Jewish opposition to Zionism seems at first glance to be a paradox. After all, the public almost automatically associates Jews and Israel. The press continues to refer to "the Jewish State." Israeli politicians often speak "in the name of the Jewish people." Yet the Zionist movement and, later, the creation of the state of Israel were to cause one of the greatest schisms in Jewish history.
Frankly I am not sure what point you're trying to make. While the overwhelming majority of the world's Jews are secular and most orthodox jews don't see a theological conflict between Israel's existence and Judaism, there indeed exist a few tiny sects of ultra-Orthodox Jews who believe that Zionism (i.e. the existence of Israel) contradicts the teachings of Judaism. So what, who the fuck cares? The state of Israel (unlike the UK for example) does not even have an official religion, it was not created to promote Judaism in the first place so even if the contradiction was real it would be totally irrelevant. Israel was created as a homeland for all Jews (religious, secular, conservative, progressive, atheists, jews for Jesus, jews for Buddah, jews from Europe, Arab countries, Africa). Who gives a flying fuck that a tiny number of jews believe Israel's existence contradicts their interpretation of the Torah if Israel was not established to accommodate their medieval religious views to begin with.
What I am pointing out is that your position is that of a secular political person who is not making an argument from a religious foundation or genuine religious traditions. The point is that the rise of secularism in people of a Jewish heritage has not produced a peaceful situation, nor is there really any viable plan for peace. What I observe is that we have a group of contentious people who wield disproportionate power and influence in American politics to an enormous degree relative to any concept of truly representative democracy, who claim to have some right to the Holy lands, when in fact they have deviated from the Holy scriptures by practicing intellectual secular thinking. I have said previously, let those who want a Jewish secular state settle somewhere else, say in Montana. Let them practice their way of life, their secular intellectual thought, but for them to proclaim they have a right to the Holy lands on the basis of a past history of Orthodox Judaism, or that they need to live in some Holy land to practice their religion, when they are not following the Holy scriptures and teaching, is a lie and an act of duplicity. I firmly believe the majority of American people have been duped into supporting the Zionist movement (let's not confuse Judaism with Zionism---they are clearly not the same) which has cause unnecessary blow-back on Americans. I believe if the America public were properly informed as to what is really going on, things would change dramatically, but it would take a media willing to tell the entire story, not a one sided Zionist driven aspect of it. "Frankly I am not sure what point you're trying to make. While the overwhelming majority of the world's Jews are secular and most orthodox jews don't see a contradiction between Israel and Judaism, there indeed exist a few tiny sects of ultra-Orthodox Jews who believe that Zionism (i.e. the existence of Israel) contradicts the teaching of Judaism. So what, who the fuck cares?" The American way has been to care about the minority position. I believe you are purposely trying to minimize the number of Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism. See, you don't deal with the minority argument, you illogically and irrationally dismiss the minority argument...simply on the basis of its minority position, because you can't make a solid case against that position! Truth is generally a minority position in the beginning... "their medieval religious views to begin with." Anyone who ever had any doubts about your real point of view, can read the above for clarification. You support violence of any kind as long as it serves your purpose, and you have the audacity to call those who are praying for peace and good will as "medieval." You are just another common fanatic, the flip side of the coin of the fanatic Muslim crazies...
What I observe is that we have a group of contentious people who wield disproportionate power and influence in American politics Hmm, where did I hear this before? Oh I remember, "the Protocols". who claim to have some right to the Holy lands, when in fact they have deviated from the Holy scriptures by practicing intellectual secular thinking. You completely ignored my points, first of all the right to the holy land is not and has never been based on the Holy scriptures so your argument is a strawman, second even the anti-zionist jews whose views you are promoting strongly believe in the jewish right to the Holy lands, their problem is not with the right per se but with the timing and leadership. The American way has been to care about the minority position. No one cares about fringe positions, no one cares about absurd positions, no one cares about self-destructive positions. There are Americans who believe that the country must be returned to the Indians or that California must be returned to Mexico. Show me any sane person who cares about these absurd fringe positions. No one does, these people are widely and correctly regarded as idiots and retards.