Says the inevitable problems that go along with such thinking. For instance; God did it. Did what exactly? He did this and that. Ok. But what about this? That last question is where the trouble starts to really become problematic. Theists routinely attempt to divorce a first cause God from things they don't like. Things they feel a "loving" god wouldn't do or things to which as per their embraced view is out of character. But a first cause is responsible for EVERYTHING that exists subsequent and consequent of its action or actions. Good, bad, and ugly. I'll give you an example of what I mean using the bible itself. The story of Job. Most theists will say that it was Satan that caused all that trouble and horror to Job and his offspring. OK. But who made Satan? Who gave him permission to do all that to job and his family even defining the limits of what could be done? They'll twist and turn over it but funny enough, the answer is right there in the last chapter: (Job 42:11) Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. Now, this is entirely appropriate in the view that not only is God the first cause and is seen here as taking responsibility, but that God is also sovereign and in control of all things. There are numerous more verses and passages like this that most theists either try to brush off or apologize for. A theist who takes an honest view of their doctrine and source, I can't fault. Reason being, there's no telling exactly why people believe what they believe. And god-of-that-gap that is prefaced with, "I believe" is fine, really. But the often militant attitude associated with the god-of-the-gap position is silly since there can never be a chance to prove it. If it proves itself as time goes by, that is one thing. But as it is, proof lies in death.
I've elected to have another cup of coffee before heading off to the salt mines so I'll offer up another 2 observations that are intersesting. String Theory and the resulting membrane theory (m-theory) explains a couple of observations in nature that cannot be explained by any other mechanism. Electrons: Instrumentation is so good these days that scientists can view individual electrons, and they are stunned. Electrons appear to flit around and its been known since Heisenberg that their position cannot be determined. Now they can see that electrons simply dissapear for part of the time and reappear here for part of the time. Electrons spend part of their time "somewhere else". Its now believed that "somewhere else" is parallel universes. Gravity: Why is gravity so weak compared to the electromagnetic force and the force binding the nucleus? Gravity can barely hold us down and it takes an object the size of the Earth to generate even that weak force. What is the reason? Well, they are saying that gravity is actually created in a parallel universe and is just leaking to our universe. All we see are the remnants of gravity. The real thing is much stronger and resides in a parallel universe that is spatially close to our universe. They say that parallel universes are closer to your skin than your clothing. They are also saying that these parallel universes have every permutation of possible events occuring in them. When you decide to have toast for breakfast your counterpart in some other parallel universe has elected to have a bagel. When you swerve to miss that deer on the road somewhere in a paralled universe your counterparts car strikes the deer. Somewhere in a parallel universe Elvis is alive and well. Somewhere, Al Gore is president. Put that in your pipe smoke it.
No, someone speculating that God existed before a so called Big Bang is just speculating. Someone speculating that God did not exist before a so called Big Bang is equally speculating. Those who believe God existed before a so called Big Bang are practicing theism. Those who believe God did not exist before a so called Big Bang are practicing atheism. Those who have no beliefs at all, other than perhaps they believe they have no belief on the subject, are practicing agnosticism. I bet you haven't been saying *that* all along. Speculation is just a guessing game...and I have been saying this all along. Faith in God, or faith in non God is a belief system. Practicing that belief system is a religion. Science should have nothing to do with religion...either the religion of atheism or theism...which is why I am opposed to teaching what we don't know in schools as supposedly fact... If we taught only fact to children, coupled with the ability to think for themselves critically, they would reach their own conclusions...not just become the programmed parrot of atheistic or theistic scientists...
A well thought and reasoned response. I appreciate your position. However, I will maintain that the only honest answer when asked, how and why was our universe created is, we don't know as of yet. What I see are pots and kettles arguing over different shades of black. All existing theories take a liberal serving of faith to be considered anything but wild eyed conjecture.
I do not see myself as some kind of hero for young earth creationists. When atheists are everywhere speaking of their evidence, it can cause some beleivers to lose their faith. For instance, when we talk about the age of the world and atheists bring up carbon dating, and then we creationists bring up the inaccuracies of carbon dating. I do not try to justify my beliefs, I just want to help those that are reading that do not like to get into the conversation. As for proof, didnt the israelites get proof with the parting of the Red Sea? Didnt the crowd of 5000 get proof when a few fish and loaves of bread fed them all? And I have to say that Abraham got his proof first. God spoke to him and told him he would have a child even though his wife was beyond childbearing years. This was Abrahams proof that God keeps his word. Once he had that proof, he only had to keep trusting God. This can be the same with us. We can get proof that God is real and that his word is real, but we still have to repent and trust that Jesus died for our sins. There are many many people that believe in God and everything in the bible, but do not give up their sinning. Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' I have no doubt that some of the things I have said on this board has gotten at least 1 person open his bible, but when you have a secularist educational system force feeding our children one thing, then not answering their questions about evolution only makes them think its worthless to open their bible and look for truth because they think they already have it. Almost all children think that if you ask a question that someone doesnt know the answer to, then it cant be answered. Many children take this thought process into adulthood. I like to call them atheists. Oh...and to address the concern of the more proof I seek, the more my faith is diminished(which i do not agree with that premise, but lets say its true) I'm sure you have heard of the mustard seed parable, correct? All you need is faith that small to move mountains. But like I said, my faith is there first. If it wasnt, I wouldnt bother looking for answers to things atheists say. I already know the proof is there through my faith, the answers are only to justify what my faith already tells me to be true.
I do not see myself as some kind of hero for young earth creationists. When atheists are everywhere speaking of their evidence, it can cause some beleivers to lose their faith. For instance, when we talk about the age of the world and atheists bring up carbon dating, and then we creationists bring up the inaccuracies of carbon dating. I do not try to justify my beliefs, I just want to help those that are reading that do not like to get into the conversation. As for proof, didnt the israelites get proof with the parting of the Red Sea? Didnt the crowd of 5000 get proof when a few fish and loaves of bread fed them all? And I have to say that Abraham got his proof first. God spoke to him and told him he would have a child even though his wife was beyond childbearing years. This was Abrahams proof that God keeps his word. Once he had that proof, he only had to keep trusting God. This can be the same with us. We can get proof that God is real and that his word is real, but we still have to repent and trust that Jesus died for our sins. There are many many people that believe in God and everything in the bible, but do not give up their sinning. Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' I have no doubt that some of the things I have said on this board has gotten at least 1 person open his bible, but when you have a secularist educational system force feeding our children one thing, then not answering their questions about evolution only makes them think its worthless to open their bible and look for truth because they think they already have it. Almost all children think that if you ask a question that someone doesnt know the answer to, then it cant be answered. Many children take this thought process into adulthood. I like to call them atheists. Oh...and to address the concern of the more proof I seek, the more my faith is diminished(which i do not agree with that premise, but lets say its true) I'm sure you have heard of the mustard seed parable, correct? All you need is faith that small to move mountains. But like I said, my faith is there first. If it wasnt, I wouldnt bother looking for answers to things atheists say. I already know the proof is there through my faith, the answers are only to justify what my faith already tells me to be true.
you silly man. those are myths. you cite mythical stories as proof of the truth of a myth. and to you it probably seems perfectly logical.
Problem here again. I suggest you learn about the different types of radioactive dating methods and when each is appropriate. When you do, you will see the mistake you made. As for being a hero, ok, sure, that was my assumption. Here though, you make yourself out to be a "soldier" fighting against what you perceive is a threat to belief. I posit that the threat is the interpretation of the genesis record. There are interpretations that are quite reasonable as far as interpretations go that do not find themselves in conflict with dating of the earth or the order of life appearing on earth. Nor what and who Adam and Eve were. And answers the question of who Cain was worried about such that a mark had to be placed on him. Careful here. You are inadvertently proving my point. We'll start with the Israelites. Proof did little for them. Hence why that generation that had "proof" had to wander the desert for 40 years and never being able to cross over the river Jordan into the promised land. They became "addicted to proof" such that they had no real need of faith. Abraham having his son sure was proof. Even though the son's name means laughter because Sarah didn't believe God and laughed when told she be having a son at that age. What's more Abraham were given proof that his son wouldn't die when he went up to sacrifice him, what would be the object of his faith? And here's a doozy. Jesus when asked for a sign told the Hebrews that no sign would be given to them except that of Jonah. Well, funny enough, that sign had to be taken by faith since those who wanted a sign had to believe the account of his followers that he rose again on the third day just like he said. As I said, in the Christian paradigm, at all points, knowledge does practically nothing. It is faith that saves. Faith must be based on something unverifiable in order to have any efficacy. Yes, but look at the one thing those individuals didn't offer? Their faith. They did works which have "proof" to validate those works. Sure you can make the case that it took faith to perform those works but here's the problem with that; The Lord says he never knew them. So we have no validation that what they did was actually the case. It may have been to them. They could have laid hands on a person with a common cold only to witness them get well a few days later. Without the Lord acknowledging that they in fact did perform those works we would have to assume they didn't actually do it. After all, we know the Lord can acknowledge a true thing. Think of the rich young ruler. Lord acknowledged that he kept the commandments. And what's more, states that he loved him for it. But since this fellow wasn't looking for an object of faith but what he can do to be perfect, Jesus gave him what he asked for... another commandment. An object this person can have as proof he's perfect. Though we know how well that worked out for the rich young ruler. Here's the thing though. If parents share and teach their children their religion and worldview and it falls in conflict with secular views, so what? What secular view properly aligns itself with a "godly" worldview? If the religion can stand up to scrutiny, it will remain in the hearts and minds of the child. I know, You're worried about souls being at stake. And I can appreciate that because it is a "loving" point of view. But if God were so concerned about that, he'd have done a whole lot more in the way of a good faith effort to see to the salvation of souls. As it is, he sends his son to die in a desert 2000 odd years ago and left the spreading of his message to fallible humans who have used and abused the message. What's more he even prevented Paul from going into what was considered Asia at the time to spread the gospel. Did God not care about the Asians? What about the Africans, Indians, etc who hadn't heard the gospel until hundreds of years late? A mostly Catholic version of the gospel no less. I could go on. But I think you get my point. Once again, you prove my point. In fact, admittedly, you posed it better than I did. Using proof to justify your faith diminishes the need for faith. Those that came before you had no proof yet still believed. Well not entirely. As they took for proof things to which had other causes than what they attributed it to. So nevermind. Oops. Butt they had no proof of creation. Suppose that is what I was getting at. In any event, what did the Lord say, "blessed are they that believe yet have not seen." Even so, the other aspect of faith, or I should say that in the biblical concept of faith, faith is believing a promise and/or word of God. So if God swore to you that he formed the universe et al by his word and you think you have found proof that he did, you no longer have faith that he did. You now "know" he did. The atheist on the other hand, with his inquiring mind, should he somehow start to believe in God, the one thing that he will never declare as "knowing" with any certainty, is proof of God's word. He will be in a state of having to be contented with faith and he knows this. and this doesn't just apply to the atheist-turn-theist. It applies to honest theists who are secure in their faith.
it is even more difficult. many if not most atheists are theist- turned-atheist, because of the evidence. for a theist- turned-atheist to turn back to theist is going to require more than faith. once a theist-turned-atheist understands the process he is usually immune to faith indoctrination. its going to require hard evidence for him to turn back theist and that just isnt going to happen because a figment of human imagination cannot produce real evidence.
Yes, the failed theist is going to have a tough time...just like a man or woman who was cheated on in a relationship is going to have a very hard time trusting another man or woman in a relationship. Good though that you are admitting to the damaged psychology of the failed theists...