. August 12, 2008 SouthAmerica: Reply to Ivanovich the Bolshevik This thread is about your mother Russia, and here is your contribution to the thread: âThis entire thread belongs in politics, not in economics.â I know you have not grasped the fact that the new cold war between Russia and the United States has major economic consequences for both countries. Just look at the impact that a new arms race will have on the budget of both countries. This time around the United States will be sinking under its massive social expenditures related to the Baby Boomer generation in the US â It will be like the US is being attacked by an army of old geezers and their destructive weapons â Medicare, Medicaid, prescription drugs, Social Security, and Pensions. The Baby Boomer generation (the old geezers) is also armed with millions of members that have diseases such as Alzheimerâs and many more diseases that require very expensive care. The United States is not going to have the money necessary to spend to keep up in an arms race versus the Russians and the Chinese. The old geezers also have the power of the vote in the United States. The only army the US is going to be able to afford in the coming years is the army of old geezers. If you donât understand the impact that this will have in the US economy then it is your problem. You want to talk about economics then Russia is in very good shape economically and can leapfrog and move its economy into the future, as the Russians rebuild their old Empire and also become an integral part of the BRICâs. This time around it is the United States the country that is going bankrupt and becoming a basket case in every sense. The American people were afraid of the Soviet Union, then Al Qaeda, and Lou Dobbs is afraid even of China, but the reality is none of these people has inflicted the damage to the United States that the Bush administration managed to inflict in 8 years in office. The Bush administration is leaving behind just the carcass of the country that they inherited in January of 2001. Believe me we are talking about issues that affect the US economy in a big way.
. August 12, 2008 SouthAmerica: Here is another example how Russia's blitz into the former Soviet republic of Georgia has exposed starkly the limits of US military power and geopolitical influence in the era following the invasion of Iraq. The United States is not losing its prestige and circle of influence only in South America â it seems to me that the damage is a lot bigger than the average American has realized. If the Americans need any consolation just keep in mind that today the British still think that they are a world superpower. And you can bet that the US decline in influence around the world it has economic consequences attached to it. ******* âUnited States Limited in Georgia Crisisâ American effort to spread democracy wanes in post-Iraq era. By Peter Grier | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor The Christian Science Monitor - August 13, 2008 edition WASHINGTON - Russia's blitz into the former Soviet republic of Georgia has exposed starkly the limits of US military power and geopolitical influence in the era following the invasion of Iraq. Georgia is one of the closest US allies in Eastern Europe. President Mikheil Saakashvili has visited the White House three times in the last four years. Yet this warm relationship did not stop the Kremlin from unleashing a ferocious military response after Georgian troops entered the separatist province of South Ossetia. US efforts to expand Western influence and spread democracy along Russia's borders may now be threatened. US relations with Russia itself, at the least, are in flux. "This gets at the stability of the framework the US thought was going to govern the post-cold-war world," says Stephen Sestanovich, senior fellow for Russian and Eurasian Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. Russian leaders on Tuesday said they had ordered a halt to military action in Georgia. The move followed five days of air and land attacks that had routed Georgia's Army and sent Russian troops deep into Georgian territory. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev announced on national television that Georgia had been punished enough for its move against South Ossetia, which has close ties to Russia. But Medvedev did not immediately announce any withdrawal of forces from current positions and there were reports of continued scattered fighting. "If there are any emerging hotbeds of resistance or any aggressive actions, you should take steps to destroy them," he told his defense minister at a televised Kremlin meeting. President Bush, for his part, on Aug. 11 demanded that Russia end its dramatic escalation of violence in Georgia and agree to an immediate cease-fire and international mediation. "Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century," said Mr. Bush in a statement televised shortly after his return to the US from the Beijing Olympics. But since the crisis began, there has been no hint that the United States would consider any kind of military move, even logistical aid for Georgian forces, that would bring it into direct conflict with Russia. The US and the West appear to have little leverage over a Moscow that is flush with oil money and eager to reestablish its position along its borders. Expulsion of Russia from the G-8 group of industrialized nations was among the few apparent strong actions the US and Europe could take. Other possible moves include threatening Russia with the loss of the 2014 Winter Olympic games at the Black Sea resort of Sochi. "The United States, its allies, and other countries need to send a strong signal to Moscow that creating 19th-century-style spheres of influence and redrawing the borders of the former Soviet Union is a danger to world peace," said Ariel Cohen, senior research fellow in Russian and Eurasian studies at the Heritage Foundation, in an analysis of the impact of the crisis. Georgian President Saakashvili has long been one of the Bush administration's favorite world leaders. Georgia contributed 2,000 troops to the US effort in Iraq, and Mr. Saakashvili has talked often of his support for Bush administration efforts to spread freedom and democracy among the countries of the former Soviet Union. Saakashvili and Bush seem to share a good personal chemistry. Bush visited Georgia in 2005; during Saakashvili's return visits to the White House, the two joshed about folk dancing and their wives' luncheon plans. In March, at a White House appearance, Saakashvili thanked Bush for supporting Georgia's aspirations to join NATO and for "protecting Georgia's borders." "I think this is a very unequivocal support we're getting from you," the Georgian leader told the US president, for the cameras. The US has long publicly stated that it is in favor of a peaceful settlement of Georgia's disputes with its breakaway provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Yet Saakashvili decided to send troops into South Ossetia, anyway. That appears to have been the spark that set off the crisis â or the provocation that Russia was waiting for. Perhaps the Georgian leader thought the US would come to his aid if he got in trouble. If so, he did not take into account the drain that Iraq has been on US forces and the US standing in the world â or the American need to work with Russia on other important geopolitical issues, such as the effort to curb Iran's nuclear program. "In many respects, Saakashvili got too close to the US, and the US got too close to Saakashvili.... Perhaps that made him overreach," says Charles Kupchan, senior fellow for Europe Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. Ukraine, among other nations, will surely watch the outcome of this crisis closely, according to Mr. Kupchan. US hopes of girdling Russia with Western-oriented governments now appear in question, as Moscow reasserts influence over its "near abroad." US hopes that Russia would be essentially a benign economic partner may also have been dashed when Russian tanks rolled into Georgian territory. "Victory in this war with no consequences for Russia will reinforce antidemocratic forces in Russia, increase the militarization of its foreign policy, and encourage Russia to take more risks elsewhere on its borders," says Stephen Jones, professor of Russian and Eurasion studies at Mount Holyoke College in South Hadley, Mass. With the US far from the area of conflict, European attitudes will be crucial. Yet on Georgia and Russia, different European countries take different positions, and they have serious internal disagreements as well. The European position tends to skew along lines of interest and history. Older European states, such as France and Germany, have strong economic and energy ties to Russia and see themselves as necessarily working with Moscow. Former Warsaw Pact states like Poland, Hungary, and the Baltic nations view Moscow with real suspicion based on bitter recent history as involuntary allies of the Soviet Union. Britain, increasingly wary of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's Russia, takes a dim view of Moscow after a season of tensions and spats. East German-born Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor, regards Prime Minister Putin at least as a question mark, but she has been skillful at pragmatic moves that have kept Berlin-Moscow relations strong. "Nothing meaningful can be done as a matter of American policy if there is no consensus among European states that this represents something deeply shocking," says Mr. Sestanovich of the Council on Foreign Relations. Robert Marquand in Paris contributed to this report. Material from Associated Press was also used. Source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0813/p01s01-usfp.html .
. August 13, 2008 SouthAmerica: The enclosed article said the following: âFurious over Russia's invasion of Georgia, the United States and its allies are weighing steps to diplomatically isolate Moscow as punishment for the conflict, senior administration officials said Tuesday. ⦠President Bush said Monday that Russia's actions "substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world" and "jeopardized its relations" with the United States and Europe.â As usual President Bush grasped the wrong information â it is not the Russians standing in the world that has been damaged it is the standing of the United States. The Russians are saying loud and clear to the world â âWe are backâ If I were the Russians I would make a major statement by taking back Georgia to test what the United States would do in such a case. Remember when the US attacked Serbia and destroyed that country and the Russians never did show up to help their old allies? Now it is time to test if it is the United States turn to rollover and play dead as the Russians did in the Serbia case. The Europeans can punish the Russians by boycotting for a long period of time the Russians oil and gas. ******** âU.S. may seek to punish Russia for Georgia conflictâ From Elise Labott CNN State Department Producer CNN News â August 13, 2008 WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Furious over Russia's invasion of Georgia, the United States and its allies are weighing steps to diplomatically isolate Moscow as punishment for the conflict, senior administration officials said Tuesday. "It is not business as usual anymore with the Russians, and there are consequences for doing what they are doing," one senior U.S. official said. Two senior administration officials said Tuesday that they could not speak for attribution because no final decisions had been made. But the United States will be discussing steps to take with its allies in the NATO alliance and the European Union, they said. The United States boycotted preparatory meetings Tuesday for a NATO meeting with Russia, and NATO has canceled a naval exercise with Russian forces in the northern Pacific. Washington and its allies also are discussing whether to drop Moscow from the Group of Eight industrialized economic powers, the official said. Russian President Dimitry Medvedev had pledged to strengthen Russia's role in the international community and world economy. But the U.S. official said that Russia, in its current situation, has "much more to lose" than the Soviet Union did when it invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968. "Russia has one foot integrated into the international economy and community of states and one foot that is not quite in it," the official said. The Russians should consider "whether they haven't achieved some tactical objectives at the expense of some strategic objectives," the official added. The United States has criticized the Russian move against Georgia, its ally, as "disproportionate" and demanded a cease-fire, to which French President Nicolas Sarkozy said both sides agreed late Tuesday. "I wanted to make very clear that the United States stands for the territorial integrity of Georgia, for the sovereignty of Georgia; that we support its democratically elected government and people, and are reviewing options for humanitarian and reconstruction assistance to Georgia," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Tuesday. "But the most important thing right now is that these military operations need to stop." President Bush said Monday that Russia's actions "substantially damaged Russia's standing in the world" and "jeopardized its relations" with the United States and Europe. Russia's ambassador to the United Nations, Vitaly Churkin, criticized the Bush administration for treating Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili like "a naughty child" as fighting raged between the two nations. "We are not happy with the way the United States has been behaving, especially the way the United States has been propping up Mr. Saakashvili over the past few years," Churkin said. Watch Churkin discuss the conflict » However, the ambassador held out hope for restored relations. "I hope we continue normal relations with the United States and the rest of the international community," he added. "We have equal interests between the Russian Federation and the United States. We should look and try to resolve this international crisis." The cease-fire agreement calls on both Russian and Georgian forces to withdraw to positions held before August 6. According to the second administration official, officials from several countries have told a variety of Russian officials, " 'you know you cannot stay," to which the Russian response is, " 'we don't want to stay.' " The official called this a "good sign and encouraging sign" but warned that the international community needed to send Russia a clear message against "mission creep." Source: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.us/ .
Really? Gee using that analysis the US should have collapsed a long time ago. The US has this warped table effect as well. Or are you going to tell me that California = Florida = Texas = New York = Iowa = Nebraska = [Put in your state here]. While the EU has issues they are not going to crumble. The EU will muddle along as it has and will continue on.
. August 13, 2008 SouthAmerica: Reply to Black diamond Maybe it is just a CNN and BBC News propaganda. As the article said: âWASHINGTON (CNN) -- Furious over Russia's invasion of Georgia, the United States and its allies are weighing steps to diplomatically isolate Moscow as punishment for the conflict, senior administration officials said Tuesday.â Maybe there was no Russian invasion of Georgia, and CNN and BBC News just made up the news from old footage to fill the space for lack of real news. Today there is one thing for sure the American mindset is in complete denial of the realities around the world â and the realities at home as well. And that is no propaganda. That is a fact. .
. August 13, 2008 SouthAmerica: Reply to Christianhgross If Jayford had read the book âThe European Dreamâ by Jeremy Rifkin then he would not make statements such as the one you quoted. On his book Mr. Rifkin documents the entire development of the European Union and he describe how today the European Union system is more adaptable and agile to adjust itself to a fast changing world. After reading Mr. Rifkinâs book you have a better understanding and appreciation of the new European Union system. .