The Iraq "Civil War" -

Discussion in 'Politics' started by SouthAmerica, Sep 20, 2005.

  1. .

    December 31, 2006

    SouthAmerica: This is a very interesting article and if the information is correct it has major implications regarding the sectarian civil war in Iraq.

    If the Iraq population has 60 percent Sunnis instead of the 20 percent number that the United States has assumed all along then no wonder the Americans are completely lost regarding the size of the insurgency and everything else that is happening in Iraq.



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    Aljazeera – December 28, 2006
    Is there a Sunni majority in Iraq?
    By: Faruq Ziada


    The United States based its policy on Iraq on two primary so-called facts:
    1. The Sunnis are a 20 % minority.
    2. The Sunni minority and Saddam Hussein ruled the Shia majority in Iraq.

    Thus, the U.S. Iraq policy -- as set by the Bush Administration, and the Neoconservatives – both before and after the 2003 war and occupation, was based on this false premise.

    Because of this, the Sunnis were marginalized and power was handed over to the Shia religious parties and Kurdish parties by the occupation force CPA, Ambassador Bremer, and later Ambassador Negroponte.

    Based on this false premise, the U.S. policy failed miserably. Still, the Bush Administration continued and still is continuing this policy. Bush called it "Stay the course…"

    For this reason, and to bring to light information that should help inform a new policy, it is of the utmost importance to correct this fallacy. We need to put the facts in front of all who will try to correct the course, find the correct necessary policies to end the bloodshed, and end the catastrophe that has befallen Iraq.

    The Correct Percentages of Sunnis, Shias, Arabs, and Kurds - The actual, real percentages of various groups in Iraq is outlined below.

    Percentage of Sunnis, Shias, Arabs, and Kurds


    As Nationalities:

    Arabs = 82 - 84%

    Kurds, Turks, etc. = 16 - 18%


    Religions

    Muslims = 95 - 98%

    Christians and others = 2- 5%


    Muslim Sects

    Sunnis = 60- 62%

    Sunni Arabs = 42 - 44%

    Sunni Kurds and Turks = 16 - 18%

    Shias = 38 - 40%

    Shia Kurds and Turks = 2 - 4%


    Statistics come from the Al- Quds Press Research Center, London Study (www.qudspress.com) and, with reference to the map on the distribution of religious groups, from the Baker – Hamilton Committee report page, 102).


    Faruq Ziada served as an ambassador in Iraq’s Foreign Ministry from 1992 to 2000.

    Source: http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-in/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=12491


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    #131     Dec 31, 2006
  2. .

    December 31, 2006

    SouthAmerica: I hope that Brazil also will add its name to the list of countries that condemned the hanging of Saddam Hussein.

    Most Americans don’t know that because they take for granted today, but a major difference between the United States and the rest of the world has been the respect that Americans have had for the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights – and its sense of justice.

    That concept worked well for the United States for about 220 years and survived major depressions, a civil war, and two world wars, and so on….

    But since November of 2000 starting with the US Supreme Court election of George W. Bush – all that became obsolete overnight with the Bush administration trashing the US Constitution and Bill of Rights – and the Bush administration has a complete contempt for the International Court in the Hague and also for international law.

    The debacle started first with the Bush administration’s unsigning of the agreement to be part of the International Court, followed by the contempt that the Bush administration has shown to the Geneva conventions, and the complete disregard and contempt the Bush administration has shown time after time towards the US Constitution and Bill of Rights – the truth is the Bush administration is turning the United States into a “Banana Republic.”

    Regarding its contempt for international law look at the "Kangaroo Court" that the United States established in Iraq to stage Saddam Hussein’s trial according to a script provided by the US – and when the trial was not going accordingly to the screenplay previously prepared – lawyers for Saddam Hussein were blocked from defending him, various lawyers were assassinated during the trial, and judges were changed during the trial at will to get to a speedy verdict that had been decided even before the trial had started.

    Because of the massive incompetence of the Bush administration and the people who are running US foreign policy – the US could have stopped Saddam Hussein’s execution if they wanted to, but his execution was part of some crazy plan the Bush administration had for Iraq and the Middle East.

    At the end of the day there is one group that will pay a high price for the stupidity of the Bush administration – the US military people who are in the middle of that mess – and Saddam Hussein’s execution will increase the number of body bags returning to the United States to be buried.

    One group of Americans that should be very angry about Saddam Hussein’s execution should be the families of Americans with loved ones in Iraq because that hanging will just increased the rage that Iraqis have against the United States occupational forces and that will translate in lots of extra body bags.


    PS: I guess Kim Jong Ill did watch what has happened to Saddam Hussein, and he probably got the message:

    If you ever give up your nuclear weapons then you will end up like Saddam Hussein.

    Your nukes is the only thing that is keeping your country and yourself safe from American aggression.



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    'Gruesome.' 'Barbaric.' 'Politicized.' 'Farcical.'
    The Nation – December 31, 2006


    The Nation -- While much of U.S. media coverage of Saddam Hussein's execution has strained to echo the Bush administration's suggestion that "justice" was done, the international reaction to the hurried hanging of the former dictator has recognized what one of the world's top experts on the Middle East refers to as the "gruesome, occasionally farcical" nature of the process that led to the execution.

    "It's tawdry," Rosemary Hollis, the director of research at Chatham House, The Royal Institute of International Affairs, in London, said of the execution. "It's not going to achieve anything because of the way the trial was conducted and the way the occupation was conducted. Life in Iraq has become so precarious that many people are saying it was safer under Saddam Hussein - it makes the whole thing look like a poke in the eye as opposed to closure or some kind of contribution to the future of Iraq. The purpose should have been to see justice done in a transparent manner... the trial was gruesome, occasionally farcical, and failed to fulfill its promise of giving satisfaction."

    Chris Doyle, the London-based director of the Council for Arab-British Understanding, was equally dismissive, telling the Guardian newspaper that, "For Bush, Blair and their diminishing brotherhood of diehard supporters, Saddam's demise is their sole concrete victory in Iraq in almost four years. This should have been the crowning glory of their efforts, but instead it may pose yet another risk to their demoralized troops. For Iraqis, some will see it as a symbol of the death of the ancien regime. For some Sunnis, Saddam's death represents the final nail in the coffin of their fall from power. But Iraqis may also see this as the humiliation of Iraq as a whole, that their president, however odious, was toppled by outside powers, and is executed effectively at others' instigation."

    Doyle's assessment was shared by Iraqi expatriate Kamil Mahdi, an academic who is now associated with the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Britain's Exeter University.

    "It will be taken as an American decision," Mahdi said of the decision to execute Hussein and the way in which deposed leader was killed. "The worst thing is that it's an issue which, in an ideal situation, should have unified Iraq but the Americans have succeeded in dividing the Iraqis."

    Critics of the trial and execution of the former dictator did not defend his actions. Rather, they recognized the fundamental flaws in his trial by an inexperienced and clearly biased Iraqi judiciary. And they condemned the rush to hang Hussein by a country employing the widely-rejected sanction of capital punishment.

    "A capital punishment is always tragic news, a reason for sadness, even if it deals with a person who was guilty of grave crimes," explained Father Federico Lombardi, spokesman for the Vatican, who added that, "The killing of the guilty party is not the way to reconstruct justice and reconcile society. On the contrary, there is a risk that it will feed a spirit of vendetta and sow new violence."

    British Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett, while officially welcoming moves to hold Hussein to account for killings and other crimes that tool place during his tenure as president of Iraq, issued a statement that said, "The British government does not support the use of the death penalty, in Iraq or anywhere else. We advocate an end to the death penalty worldwide, regardless of the individual or the crime."

    Another longtime U.S. ally, Italy's former prime minister Silvio Berlusconi, who in 2003 dispatched his country's troops to support the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq, condemned the hanging of Hussein as "a step backward in Iraq's difficult road toward full democracy. Describing the killing as a "political and historical" mistake, Berlusconi said, "The civilization in the name of which my country decided to send Italian soldiers into Iraq envisioned overcoming the death penalty, even for a bloody dictator like Saddam."

    Dutch Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm criticized the hanging as "barbaric," and similar criticism came from officials of Chile, Spain, Ireland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Switzerland and the Ukraine.

    Speaking for Amnesty International, Malcolm Smart, director of the organization's Middle East and North Africa Programme, echoed concerns expressed by Human Rights Watch and other watchdog groups.

    "We oppose the death penalty in all cases as a violation of the right to life and the ultimate cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, but it is especially abhorrent when this most extreme penalty is imposed after an unfair trial," said Smart. "It is even more worrying that in this case, the execution appeared a foregone conclusion, once the original verdict was pronounced, with the Appeals Court providing little more than a veneer of legitimacy for what was, in fact, a fundamentally flawed process."

    While Iran, which fought a long war with Iraq in the 1980s, found itself in ironic agreement with the Bush administration's enthusiasm for the execution, most Muslim countries were critical of the timing of the hanging.

    The killing of Hussein during the Eid al-Adha, or Feast of the Sacrifice, an annual period of religious reflection seem by Muslims globally as a time for showing forgiveness, drew rebukes even from U.S. allies. During Eid, Muslim countries rarely execute prisoners and frequently pardon them.

    "There is a feeling of surprise and disapproval that the verdict has been applied during the holy months and the first days of Eid al-Adha," Saudia Arabia's official news agency declared after the execution. "Leaders of Islamic countries should show respect for this blessed occasion... not demean it."

    "It had been expected that the trial of a former president, who ruled for a considerable length of time, would last longer... demonstrate more precision, and not be politicized," continued the blunt statement from the Saudis.

    Libya cancelled Eid al Adha celebrations and ordered that flags on government buildings be flown at half-mast.

    A statement from the Egyptian foreign ministry announced that, "Egypt regrets the fact that the Iraqi authorities carried out the execution of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussain, and that it took place on the first day of Eid Al Adha."

    From Cairo, Foreign Ministry spokesman Alaa Al Hadidi complained that the execution's timing "did not take into consideration the feelings of Muslims and the sanctity of this day which represents amnesty and forgiveness."


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    #132     Dec 31, 2006
  3. The hanging gives the neoclowns who got their asses kicked in the recent elections something to feel good about. They can proudly declare that the mission by their masters have been accomplished and they now will want to invade Iran and North Korea.

    I read some of the posts here by those pathetic caricature of humans gloating on how many guns they have to make them feel safe... made me laugh so hard. Such pathetic semi apes, they give the ape family a bad name. :p
     
    #133     Dec 31, 2006
  4. Yes, a dictater that invaded Iran, causing the deaths *millions* of people, murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people and later tried pulling the same shit with kuwait is gone, then violated 17+ UN resolutions, is now gone.

    Now he is dead, along with his psychotic brothers, and you dont think the world is safer because a bunch of religious freaks insist on killing each other in iraq??? Peoples memories are too short. You really want to compare thousands dead to millions???

    Another victim of blind rage against the USA. Turn off the TV and think.




     
    #134     Dec 31, 2006
  5. According to Paul Bremer, "Saddam "killed more Muslims than any man in modern history" and may have killed as many as 300,000 Iraqis during his 35 years in power,".

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/05/bremer.rumsfeld/

    Now, can you guess how many Iraqis have been killed as result of the invasion by the US and the resulting anarchy in that country?

    "An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion, according to a survey by a US university. "
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm

    Please turn off faux news and think. Stop regurgitating your masters' words.
     
    #135     Dec 31, 2006
  6. I see you like to read garbage journalism.

    "since the invasion to overthrow Saddam Hussein"... the article blames all deaths on the USA, even when it doesnt cause them. Absolutely irresponsible and bias crap reporting.

    They are actually counting and pinning ALL deaths after the US invasion, on the USA. So when psychopathic religious fanatics run around and kill each other and blow up civillians, its pinned on the USA. How about pinning it on the fanatics? Oh noooo, we cant do that, because we have a blind rage against the US, and must blame them for deaths other people cause too. Absurd.

    Do you really think this can be directly compared to Saddam explicitly murdering civillians?

    This is pure anti-US left wing garbage.

    You also ignore the millions of deaths saddam directly caused during the iran/iraq war.

    There is no comparison. Anyone who believes so is simply an idiot behind help.



     
    #136     Jan 1, 2007
  7. Hmmm... CNN and BBC are garbage journalism...:confused:

    Says a lot about you. :D

    "Anyone who believes so is simply an idiot behind help. "

    Now only if idiots that are ahead of help can explain what behind help is... :p

    I gave you links to prove my point, but all you provided was rhetoric and name calling. Sorry, I did not realize I was getting into a debate with a mental midget. I think I should better stop now before you provide more proof of your genetic defects.
     
    #137     Jan 1, 2007
  8. .

    January 1, 2007

    SouthAmerica: After trying to make a connection between Osama Bin Ladden and Iraq since 9/11 – finally the Bush administration is able to deliver Iraq to Osama Bin Ladden.

    The United States got rid off Osama Bin Ladden’s archenemy in Iraq - Saddam Hussein – and in that process the United States was able to achieve something really unbelievable – they turned Saddam Hussein a ruthless dictator into a “MARTYR” for the Arab world.

    Completely clueless as usual with a single hanging the United States besides turning Saddam Hussein into a martyr and a symbol for the Arab world to look up to, the United States also achieved another US goal – they turned Osama Bin Ladden as the uncontested leader of the Sunni Arabs in Iraq. Instead of having only Saddam Hussein and a local Sunni insurgency to worry about – we start the new year of 2007 with Osama Bin Ladden in charge in Iraq with his Al Qaeda freedom fighters; an organization that has global reach including cells inside the United States as demonstrated by the attack of 9/11 in US soil.

    Today finally, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the entire group of incompetent clowns who have been making US foreign since January 2001 were able to elevate Osama Bin Ladden to the position of ultimate and supreme Sunni leader in Iraq and around the world. Today, with Saddam Hussein out of the way Osama Bin Ladden is the new undisputed Sunni leader and warrior in Iraq, and over the years he has become a “Legend” of disproportional stature in the Arab world – but always with the helping hand of the United States; first in Afghanistan and now in Iraq.

    As usual the US mainstream media were not able to make that simple connection as yet – as a matter of fact the US mainstream media takes forever to make the most simple connections – most Americans still are not sure if Iraq is in the middle of a sectarian civil war.

    If anything the sectarian war in Iraq it will take a turn for the worse in the coming months after the video of Saddam Hussein’s hanging was shown in the Internet showing the Shiites who attended his hanging tormenting and humiliating a man that was to be hanged in a matter of minutes.

    First Saddam Hussein was sentenced to death by a Kangaroo court set up by the United States then he was humiliated by his enemies to the last second before his death.


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    #138     Jan 1, 2007
  9. .

    January 10, 2007

    SouthAmerica: The United States has an advantage in the Iraq War working on its favor – any time they decide to bomb a town or a part of a town they can claim that they are killing any group they want including Sunni insurgents, or Al-Qaeda fighters – it does not matter who they actually kill – they just claim that they have killed wherever group they need at the time to justify what they were doing.

    It is a good thing the United States is fighting this war in Iraq instead of Lebanon otherwise the Americans would be even more confused than they are - without knowing which group was a Sunni, a Shiite, Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and to make things even more confusing in Lebanon – they also have the Christians.

    Quoting from the Los Angeles Times article: “In fierce, day-long fighting, 1,000 American and Iraqi troops assisted by U.S. attack helicopters and warplanes battled gunmen in a Sunni Arab downtown neighborhood Tuesday, killing at least 51 militants, according to Iraqi officials.

    … American airstrikes continued through the day and plumes of smoke rose over the neighborhood while explosions and shooting echoed through the streets.

    … No U.S. or Iraqi troops were killed, nor were any civilians…”


    Let me clarify a little further the above statement: “American Civilians.”



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    “Baghdad sees heaviest fighting in months”
    By Louise Roug, Times Staff Writer
    Los Angeles Times - 6:56 PM PST, January 9, 2007


    BAGHDAD -- In fierce, day-long fighting, 1,000 American and Iraqi troops assisted by U.S. attack helicopters and warplanes battled gunmen in a Sunni Arab downtown neighborhood Tuesday, killing at least 51 militants, according to Iraqi officials.

    The offensive, the heaviest fighting in the capital in months, came in response to a buildup of insurgents in the Haifa Street neighborhood adjacent to the highly fortified Green Zone government complex. Sunni gunmen had erected fake checkpoints in recent days, residents said, and in one case, pulled out passengers from a minibus, killing them and stringing their bodies from electricity poles.

    American airstrikes continued through the day and plumes of smoke rose over the neighborhood while explosions and shooting echoed through the streets. Snipers fought back from high-rise apartment buildings, supporting fellow insurgents armed with machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.

    Troops went door-to-door, searching for militants. No U.S. or Iraqi troops were killed, nor were any civililans, Iraqi officials said.

    The bloody fighting broke out a day before President Bush was expected to announce the deployment of at least 20,000 more U.S. troops to Iraq, and underscored some of the possible challenges of an escalation of American troops in Baghdad. Some military commanders believe violence could actually increase with more American troops in the capital. Army Gen. John P. Abizaid, who is retiring soon as the top American commander in the Mideast, has opposed troop increases in the past in part because he has argued that they offer more targets for insurgents. Rather than increasing the feeling of security, additional troops can add to the feeling of chaos, in Abizaid's view, if insurgents set off bombs every time an American convoy moves through.

    Advocates of a troop increase maintain that a larger U.S. force, especially in urban areas like Baghdad, could deter insurgents and armed Shiite militias through the visible presence of heavily armed Americans who could also respond quickly to hostile action.

    Just last week, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki and a top U.S. military commander on the ground announced a new plan to secure the capital. But past plans, including the most recent dubbed "Together Forward" have failed -- in part because rebels tend to regroup elsewhere and return once the troops have left, making the American military's efforts akin to a game of "whack-a-mole," critics say.

    The Haifa Street neighborhood, where Saddam Hussein had once given away free real estate to army officers and party officials, emerged after the U.S.-led 2003 invasion as a place of visible and widespread resistance. For a while, locals openly flew black flags, declaring holy war against the Americans. Then known as "Purple Heart Boulevard" because of a high number of U.S. casualties, Haifa Street was declared a success story by President Bush in late 2005 after elite Iraqi security forces brought down the number of attacks. At the time, American and Iraqi troops established a presence on the streets, prompting a clean-up of the area. Potholes from bombs and mortars were filled and violence ebbed.

    Iraqi government forces were left responsible for maintaining order in the neighborhood but could not effectively do so on their own.

    In the course of the last year, rebels regrouped in and around this three-mile stretch of road cutting through central Baghdad. Last week, police recovered 27 bodies dumped near a cemetery as militants flooded the neighborhood from other parts of the city.

    Then, on Sunday, a security guard said a sniper holed up at a local mosque killed two of the guard's colleagues. The following day, gunmen roamed the streets, distributing leaflets threatening to kill anyone who might enter the area, according to another witness.

    When Iraqi security forces tried to clear out the neighborhood, the rebels fought off the troops, according to Iraqi officials and locals.

    Shortly before dawn on Tuesday, American and Iraqi troops swarmed the neighborhood, closing it off. Soon, streets were deserted as militants took up their positions and anxious residents stayed at home.

    American aircrafts then targeted gunmen in the streets and snipers on the roofs, witnesses said.

    "I saw with my own eyes a vehicle filled with gunmen carrying different weapons and rocket launchers," said Abdullah Jassim, one of the few Shiites in the area. "A few moments later, the car was torn to pieces by an air strike, setting the vehicle ablaze and killing all those who were inside."

    Jassim, a 37-year-old shop owner who decided to leave the neighborhood as the fighting intensified Tuesday , said Americans bombed at least one well-known hideout used by insurgent snipers.

    On Tuesday, Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, ) a U.S. military spokesman, said the joint campaign along Haifa Street will "continue until this area is secured."

    "The goal is to protect Baghdad and other areas," he told reporters. "If this is going to be achieved by an increase in friendly coalition forces, we have no objection."

    The bitter civil war between Sunnis and Shiites combined with a stubborn insurgency directed at the Americans, has made the streets of the capital increasingly lawless, costing tens of thousands civilian lives.

    A 43-year-old Sunni woman who asked to be identified as Um Wissam said she feared the gunmen and had stopped sending her children to school. Still, the raid Tuesday made her feel even less safe.

    "We don't know if we will survive this," she said. "When this operation is finished, I will leave Haifa Street for good. We can't live here anymore."

    Throughout the morning Tuesday, residents could hear the thunderous explosions of the aerial assault.

    "I said to myself --'we are going to die,'" shop owner Jassim said. "Our houses are kind of old and they can be destroyed easily."

    He also feared the militants might kill him and his family and so he decided to leave.

    "We couldn't leave at the morning because the clashes were very intense," he said. Eventually, however, he and his family made it to a relative's house in another part of town.

    "We're really afraid," said Raad Radhi, a 50-year-old Sunni merchant. "All the windows in our buildings and the neighboring ones were completely smashed because of the bombings."

    In one apartment, Radhi said, troops harassed an elderly Syrian teacher living with his son, a college student.

    Maj. Gen. Ibrahim Shaker, a spokesman from the Ministry of Defense, said 51 suspected insurgents were killed and 21 others -- including three Syrians and a Sudanese -- were captured.

    Violence also continued unabated elsewhere in Iraq. At least 40 bodies were found in various parts of Baghdad. North of the capital in the troubled Diyala Province, U.S. forces pounded palm groves and canals with artillery and gunfire as a joint offensive with Iraqi forces entered its sixth day.

    Another 1,000 U.S. and Iraqi forces have swept through over 200 square kilometers of rich farmland and isolated hamlets, zeroing in on a vast network of tunnels, spider holes and canals they say has become a safe haven and training ground for Sunni Arab rebels.

    At least 74 suspected insurgents have been killed since that offensive began, according to the U.S. military. Troops have also found at least 14 weapons caches, commanders said.

    "We could stay here for eternity," said Lt. Col. Andrew Poppas, commander of the 5th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry, as he toured the battlefield, smoking cigars. "We've got the capability to wait out anybody."

    The U.S. military on Tuesday announced that an American soldier assigned to 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, died Tuesday from gunshot injuries sustained during the fighting in Diyala.

    Near the city of Kut, a shepherd was killed when he stepped on a land mine close to the Iranian border. Another man was found slain, handcuffed and blindfolded, in the river near that city.

    Because of the bloodshed, Iraqis are fleeing their homes in record numbers. As many as one in eight Iraqis have been displaced, making it the biggest refugee problem in the region for almost 60 years, according to the United Nations.

    Times staff writers Saif Hameed and Salar Jaff in Baghda, Alexandra Zavis in Diyala and Julian Barnes in Washington, D.C. contributed to this report.


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    #139     Jan 10, 2007
  10. Sam321

    Sam321

    Can’t challenge what I say, so you call me a woman. Let’s talk about how Muslims value women, shall we? You reveal yourself by trying to discredit people by simply calling them female.
     
    #140     Jan 10, 2007