(Malachi 3:6) "For I am the Lord, I change not" (Hosea 13: 4 16) Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no savior beside me. Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. (Psalm 137) "Blessed shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!" (Isaiah 13: 15 16) Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.
In reply to Stu: Context: Psalm 137 7 Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!” 8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. 9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. Isaiah 13 vs 1 A prophecy against Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw:......... vs 9 See, the day of the Lord is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. 10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. 12 I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. 14 Like a hunted gazelle, like sheep without a shepherd, they will all return to their own people, they will flee to their native land. 15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated. Was the prophecy against Babylon fulfilled? http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/q29.htm Wasn't Babylon supposed to be desolate forever?Question: In Jer. 50:39 and Is. 13:19-20 God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. Response: The neo-Babylonian empire was conquered by Cyrus about 2500 years ago. That conquest brought a permanent end to the Babylonian empire. As for the city of Babylon, it began a long process of decline after Cyrus' conquest and is said to have been completely deserted by 800 AD. The city was buried in sand until the late 1800s, when archaeologists rediscovered the site. The city began a new life as an archaeological site, although progress has been stymied by wars that have occurred during the past few centuries.
ahh so that's what it is. There was me thinking that murdering babies and pregnant women was inexcusable in any context and no decent human being would ever try to justify such things. But obviously, if it's to do with whether a prophecy is fulfilled, well then, I mean, wtf! Context: Bible Word of angry, vengeful, homicidal, infanticidal God
responding to Stu I think this article does a good job explaining why a good and loving God afflicts punishment. Here are some quotes from it: https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/five-truths-about-the-wrath-of-god 1. God’s wrath is just. It has become common for many to argue that the God of the Old Testament is a moral monster that is by no means worthy of worship...... J.I. Packer summarizes: “God’s wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble thing that human anger so often is. It is, instead, a right and necessary reaction to objective moral evil” (Knowing God, 151). 2. God’s wrath is to be feared. ....... God’s wrath is to be feared because he is powerful enough to do what he promises (Jeremiah 32:17). God’s wrath is to be feared because God promises eternal punishment apart from Christ (Matthew 25:46). 3. God’s wrath is consistent in the Old and New Testaments. It is common to think of the Old Testament God as mean, harsh, and wrath-filled, and the God of the New Testament as kind, patient, and loving. Neither of these portraits are representative of Scripture’s teaching on the wrath of God. We find immensely fearful descriptions of the wrath of God in both the Old and the New Testament. Here are just a few examples: .... “God must act justly and judge sin, otherwise God would not be God.” Jeremiah 30:23) .... For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. (Romans 1:18) 4. God’s wrath is his love in action against sin. .... God is love, and God does all things for his glory (1 John 4:8; Romans 11:36).... 5. God’s wrath is satisfied in Christ. “In saving us from his own wrath, God has done what we could not do, and he has done what we didn’t deserve.” 1 Timothy 1:15). Because of Christ, God can rightly call sinners justified (Romans 3:26). God has done what we could not do, and he has done what we didn’t deserve. Charles Wesley rightly exulted in this good news: And can it be that I should gain An interest in the Saviour’s blood? Died he for me, who caused his pain! For me, who him to death pursued? Amazing love! How can it be That thou, my God, shouldst die for me? And I'll add one more verse: "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." 1 Thessalonians 1:10 God's coming wrath is one reason why Christians feel so compelled to share that, "you MUST be born again!!!"
I became a Christian when I was nine years old, after finding a pocket-sized King James Bible with the Psalms, Proverbs and New Testament when I was rummaging through junk in an old bureau drawer at my maternal grandmother’s house one summer. I asked her if I could have it, and she said that I could. I began reading it while lying across my uncle’s former bedroom starting with the Psalms. But I couldn’t make heads or tails of what it was saying, so I skipped ahead to Proverbs, which I was able to comprehend. It was while I was reading the Gospel of Matthew that I became a Christian, being impressed by the fulfillment of so many Old Testament prophesies, which led me to conclude that what I was reading was true. (I finished reading the rest of the New Testament before the summer was over.) No one in my immediate family was a Christian, so I did not start attending church until some Jehovah’s Witnesses came to our door when I was in the eighth grade. I was impressed by the fact that they did not seem to be hypocrites like most of the people I knew who attended other churches appeared to be. But having already read the New Testament for myself (probably twice by then) it wasn’t long before I could plainly see that the JW’s were not legit. The first time I began to doubt was shortly after that, during the summer following eighth grade, when a lot of things in my life were not as I would have chosen. However, I opted to reread the Bible at that time in that I still respected it as a book of wisdom, looking to if for some reason to continue enduring life. It led me to consider something my middle school art teacher did that made me feel significant, and to reflect on what a tragedy it would be if I could do the same for someone else, but was not there for them because I opted out of this life, with the result being their opting out of life as well. I reasoned that if I could do for even one other person what my art teacher did for me, then my life would have been worth living, regardless of what I had to endure. So, having given up on God, I decided to rely on myself, and by (actually during) my senior year in high school, I had become band concert master, won a few art awards, made the varsity basketball team, secured the lead role in a school play, and appeared in my senior yearbook a total of twenty-one times. It was at that moment that I realized that though I had turned my back on God, God never turned His back on me. The Bible does not actually say that God helps those who help themselves. But I realized that this is true, nonetheless. It was a mistake for me to expect God to do everything! It was on me to take the first steps (in a manner of speaking, though God actually took the first step when He drew me to Himself). Thinking about it now, I see examples of this throughout Scripture, such as the four men with the paralytic breaking through the roof, the woman with the discharge of blood pushing her way through the crowd, the blind beggar crying out all the more when everyone told him to be quiet, etc. I never doubted God again after that. But it was not until a few years later that I finally experienced the presence of God. For one thing, it was not until I was in my twenties that I finally heard of a church that believed what was written in Scripture like I did, that “these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.” And once I started attending, it was not until I was filled with the Holy Spirit (and began speaking in tongues) that I started to develop a personal relationship with God. It was then that “praying without ceasing” became automatic rather than something I would consciously attempt—unsuccessfully. Still, it was a few more years after that, after leaving this first church, that I said to myself, “You’ve done everything a believer is supposed to do, except that you’ve never been baptized. You need to go to a church to get baptized!” It was after carrying out this final act of obedience that everything opened up for me, that the Old Testament came to life for the first time and no longer put me to sleep, or made God seem like a monster to me, and I was finally able to read the Bible all the way through, from Genesis through Leviticus, Kings, Chronicles, Song of Solomon (what a shock!) to Revelation. It was then that I saw clearly that it was not about what God could do for me, but about what I could no in His service. That when I worshiped Him, it was me who was blessed. When I helped others, I was the one who was healed, etc. And from there, studying science only deepened my faith in God. When I saw that no matter how infinitesimally tiny scientists peer into the universe, they always find something more, it helped me realize all the more that God is a God of infinite detail—so that there was no question in my mind that He is absolutely aware of every single facet of my life. That I am never alone and He is always with me. It’s not about obedience per se—it’s about a relationship. Once the relationship is established, the obedience follows naturally.
At some point for humans that live to adulthood, they learn to think for themselves and no longer have to blindly believe what someone else told them.
Ph1l said: At some point for humans that live to adulthood, they learn to think for themselves and no longer have to blindly believe what someone else told them. True. In my case, having experienced God's working in my life so often (directing my choices, saving my life (a few times), or saving me from danger (using unusual circumstances), and having an understanding of the way all the pieces fit together.....scientific reasons why (Designer) and errors with evolution (taught to me very early in life), moral reasons, archaeological reasons, and biblical prophecies that were fulfilled.....as well as seeing God answer my prayers AND the prayers of my parents, AND the prayers of friends, and having read many, many biographies of other Christians who have the same experience of answered prayers throughout their lives (How I know God Answers Prayer by Rosalind Goforth) and seeing the consistency in scripture (that I haven't yet encountered any contradictions that after looking into them seemed unexplainable), yet so many prophecies and minor details that were interwoven throughout the scriptures provide verification that God inspired the Bible, AND having fellowship with God during prayer, Bible meditation and preaching of the Word... I just haven't been able to understand anyone experiencing these things and walking away from God and the Bible. My opinion, so far, is that those that do walk away do not have what I have found. I don't know how else to see it. And it makes sense, that there are some Christians that go through times of questioning and not sensing God's working in their lives if they get away from fellowshiping with God through the Bible and don't feel His nearness. I've had times where God did not feel close, but I cannot deny all that I know to be true that I wrote in the first paragraph and I never doubted that it was true. I think the difference is because my whole life I've been surrounded by biblical teaching and never gotten away from it and it's through the Bible that God has spoken to my heart. I'm not trying to sound "better" than anyone. Or minimize anyone's struggles in experiencing God. I'm trying to share honestly that that's how I understand it, how I view things. I know it's different from probably most of the people reading here. But I really don't think my faith is simply because I follow my parents, or friend's faith. Maybe you could say, my faith is because, "the Bible tells me so" but there is an infinite number of evidences to back it up. Infinite, because God is infinite and for all eternity He will continue to reveal Himself to me, as His Word declares. "this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3
I found a free online version of How I know God Answers Prayer and was about to post it here when I thought that something from the life of George Muller might be better. The wikipedia article says everything I've been trying to share on this thread, so here are some experpts with boldness added for emphasis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Müller George Muller was born in 1805. He began an orphanage in England at a time when many orphans were not cared for. He cared for 10,024 orphans during his lifetime,[1][2] and provided educational opportunities for the orphans to the point that he was even accused by some of raising the poor above their natural station in British life. He established 117 schools which offered Christian education to more than 120,000. He did not have the funds to run a large orphanage and made it his practice not to ask for money (unlike American TV evangelists) but prayed for God to meet the needs of the orphans. Müller never sought donations from specific individuals and relied on the Almighty for all of his needs. The theology that guided George Müller's work is not widely known, but was shaped by an experience in his middle twenties when he "came to prize the Bible alone as [his] standard of judgement". He records in his Narratives "[...] That the word of God alone is our standard of judgment in spiritual things.... ..... that in him that wonderful plan of our redemption originated, and that he also appointed all the means by which it was to be brought about. Further, that the Son, to save us, had fulfilled the law, to satisfy its demands, and with it also the holiness of God; that he had borne the punishment due to our sins, and had thus satisfied the justice of God. And, further, that the Holy Spirit alone can teach us about our state by nature, show us the need of a Saviour, enable us to believe in Christ, explain to us the Scriptures, help us in preaching, etc. It was my beginning to understand this latter point in particular which had a great effect on me; for the Lord enabled me to put it to the test of experience, by laying aside commentaries, and almost every other book, and simply reading the word of God and studying it. The result of this was, that the first evening that I shut myself into my room, to give myself to prayer and meditation over the Scriptures, I learned more in a few hours than I had done during a period of several months previously. But the particular difference was, that I received real strength for my soul in doing so. I now began to try by the test of the Scriptures the things which I had learned and seen, and found that only those principles which stood the test were really of value." [18] A life of prayer[edit] One example was when one of the orphan house's boiler stopped working; Müller needed to have it fixed. This was a problem, because the boiler was bricked up and the weather was worsening with each day. So he prayed for two things; firstly that the workers he had hired would have a mind to work throughout the night, and secondly that the weather would let up. On the Tuesday before the work was due to commence, a bitter north wind still blew but in the morning, before the workmen arrived, a southerly wind began to blow and it was so mild that no fires were needed to heat the buildings. That evening, the foreman of the contracted company attended the site to see how he might speed things along, and instructed the men to report back first thing in the morning to make an early resumption of work. The team leader stated that they would prefer to work through the night. The job was done in thirty hours.[39] In 1862, it was discovered that one of the drains was blocked. Being some 11 feet underground, workmen were unable to find the blockage despite several attempts. Müller prayed about the situation and the workmen at once found the site of the problem.[40][41] Strong gales in Bristol on Saturday 14 January 1865 caused considerable damage in the area and over twenty holes were opened in the roofs. About twenty windows were also broken and two frames damaged by falling slates. The glazier and slater normally employed had already committed their staff to other work so nothing could be done until the Monday. Had the winds continued, with heavy rain, the damage to the orphanage would have been much greater. After much prayer, the wind stopped in the afternoon and no rain fell until Wednesday, by which time most of the damage had been repaired.[42] Once, while crossing the Atlantic on the SS Sardinian in August 1877, his ship ran into thick fog. He explained to the captain that he needed to be in Quebec by the following afternoon, but Captain Joseph E. Dutton (later known as "Holy Joe") said that he was slowing the ship down for safety and Müller's appointment would have to be missed. Müller asked to use the chartroom to pray for the lifting of the fog. The captain followed him down, claiming it would be a waste of time. After Müller prayed a very simple prayer, the captain started to pray, but Müller stopped him; partly because of the captain's unbelief, but mainly because he believed the prayer had already been answered. Müller said, "Captain, I have known my Lord for more than fifty years and there is not one instance that I have failed to have an audience with the King. Get up, Captain, for you will find that the fog has gone." When the two men went back to the bridge, they found the fog had lifted, and Müller was able to keep his appointment. The captain became a Christian shortly afterwards.[43] Müller's faith in God strengthened day by day and he spent hours in daily prayer and Bible reading. Indeed, it was his practice, in later years, to read through the entire Bible four times a year.[44] Here is the free online pdf version of How I know God Answers Prayer By Rosalind Goforth https://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Text.Only/pdfs/I_Know_God_Answers_Text.pdf I read this years ago. It was very helpful in confirming my own experiences of answered prayers, that we are to "ask in order to receive." It was also helpful to understand that just because God wants us to ask for our needs and promises to take care of us, that we will still go through difficult times. Although I have had many answers to prayer in my own life, I have not had them to them same extent as George Muller has had...but then, I have also not spent as much time as he did in daily prayer and Bible reading.
There have been a couple of times now when I have been admitted to a hospital emergency room in unbelievable pain. But rather than ask, "God, why are You letting this happen to me?" my prayer was, "Father, You are my ultimate hope," adopting the attitude conveyed in Job 13:15..."Though He slay me, I will hope in Him." If relief were not coming from the doctors, it would have to come from God, whom I know is faithful. And were I to die lying there on the hospital gurney, I would be in His presence, so either way, I could trust that I would eventually feel better. There is no walking away from God at this point given that He is and always will be my ultimate hope, as I just wrote above.
I've also been stretched so many times with difficult trials, sometimes health related, and I have said the same verse back to God many times, "Though You slay me, yet I will trust you." I mean, after all, He gave us life, and will take it when He pleases, but somehow recognizing that, gives me peace. It's the suffering in between here and heaven that I don't look forward to....but it helps knowing He took on humanity and also suffered so much for us. What people don't understand is that when God is interacting with us who belong to Him in such definite ways, that He is closer than any other family member can ever be....What other person can read your thoughts, listen to the faintest whispers in your mind, and respond to them?