If Christians really believe in the Bible then why don’t they obey all of the Old Testament commandments, and what does it mean when Scripture says that Yeshua fulfilled these laws? In what way(s) did He do so? (Based on information form Got Questions and Ask Dr. Brown.) There is often confusion about the role of the Old Testament Law and how it relates to Christians today. Accordingly, it's a good idea to divide the laws in Leviticus into moral, civil and ritual. This is useful in terms of making distinctions from our vantage point, even though this would not have been internal or natural within the Torah itself. Failing to do so, to recognize differences between them, can lead to much folly in terms of how they are regarded, which is why this is so important. That said, the first mention of the Law to the nation of Israel was as a covenant—a legal agreement between God and the people He chose. The Israelites were required to obey the Law fully if they were to receive its benefits. Though the entire Law encompasses roughly 613 commandments, it began with ten—the first four addressing how a believer is to relate to God, with the other six focusing on interpersonal relations. Many of the remaining commands gave detailed instruction on how God was to be worshiped and how the people were to live their lives. For example, one purpose of the Law was to point out everyone’s sinfulness, their inability to keep their end of the covenant, to recognize their guilt, and to show them their need for a Savior. It was supposed to produce a consciousness of sin and hold the world accountable to God. In other words, its function was to lead everyone to the Messiah so that they might be justified by faith. God gave the Law to set a standard of holiness, and at the same time, to show that we could never meet that standard on our own. That’s why Jesus Christ had to come—to fulfill all the righteous requirements of the Law on our behalf, and then to take the punishment of violating that Law, also on our behalf. God was using the Law to prepare Israel to receive the Messiah and then make Him known to the world. The Law was a means of calling Israel to be separated from the other nations given the fact that if they weren’t separated, they would have been swallowed up with (or by) them. Again, there were various reasons for various laws, and even the Rabbis would say some of them have no rational explanation. Some were simply carried out because God commanded them. Nonetheless, throughout the history of Israel, God was seeking to communicate truths to the Jews through the Law. For example, when they went to the temple—the holiest place of all—there were articles were made of gold, then some of silver, and others of bronze; reflecting that in the nation as a whole, every individual was in a state of ritual holiness, like a priest, or were clean, or were unclean. When it came to food, there were some that could be set apart for ritual sacrifice, and some that were considered clean and could be eaten, and others that were deemed unclean and could not be eaten. Throughout all of this, God was teaching the Israelites certain distinctions and keeping them separate from the other nations. To the extent that people eat together, fellowship together, engage in activities together—whether as families, neighbors or friends—they will often end up falling into sin together. So, certain laws were there to keep Israel separate. Certain laws were there to give them outward concepts of cleanliness so that they could then understand spiritual concepts of cleanliness. Laws concerning the animal sacrifices were there to teach them concepts such as the penalty of sin, the principle of substitution and the importance of blood, all to prepare Israel to be a priestly nation to whom the Messiah could come, and to help them understand and recognize who He was so that they could then declare that message to the world. So, in what sense does Yeshua fulfill the law? Everything having to do with our approach to God—the atonement system, the priesthood, the temple—everything having to do with our approach to God the Messiah fulfills by dying on the cross for our sins, by making us into a spiritual temple, and by being our great High Priest. He brings it to the fullest meaning. And when it comes to the moral laws, He fulfills them by raising them to a higher standard. Jesus took moral laws to a higher level by applying them to the thoughts and intents of the heart, a perspective that significantly diminishes our ability to keep the Law. For example, He says adultery is not just the physical act, but an act of the heart. Murder is not just a physical act, but an act of the heart. So, He brings them to their fullest meaning. He fulfilled the ceremonial laws by showing what they were pointing to…that is…dietary laws of separation and commands of this nature. And then the biblical calendar He brings to its fullness and to fulfillment by filling out the meaning of the Sabbath and the Passover, etc. (When He returns He will fill out the meaning of the Fall Feasts.) Fulfilling the civil law is a little bit different, since the application of civil law was on a national level. The Savior simply imbues each with a deeper meaning, and through that, we now try to live out the principles in our own society. Ultimately, by living a perfectly righteous life, Christ fulfilled the goal and the object of the Torah so that everyone who will can now receive His righteousness. So then, Christians obey the ritual laws by simply following Jesus. They obey the moral laws just as commanded, but at an even deeper level. And they obey the civil laws by applying the same core principles to whatever society or country they are living in.
The Bible reveals an accurate portrayal of the depraved, sinful condition we are in and righteousness of God in that He must judge our sins. Our only hope is to be born again through faith in Jesus based on the substitution He became for us when He died on the cross and rose again. Expiated got it right when he said: "God gave the Law to set a standard of holiness, and at the same time, to show that we could never meet that standard on our own. That’s why Jesus Christ had to come—to fulfill all the righteous requirements of the Law on our behalf, and then to take the punishment of violating that Law, also on our behalf."
You do realize what you're saying? God which is also Jesus set laws making it wrong for everyone to be bad, made everyone bad and to fix it sent his son which is himself, to follow those laws but break them on everyone's behalf as a proxy for everyone. So if there were a God and it had a puppy, it would tell it not to pee on the carpet, buy a carpet when he didn't have to, get into a rage when the puppy peed on it, throw the puppy out and abandon it , kill himself but not really, and then consider himself to be the victim. yep makes sense.
No. The combo/collection of popular theological opinions and select histories does not reveal exactly how deep or depraved is the sinful condition of man, nor of man's maker (that which conceived of man out of imagination). It does not honestly or accurately explain how or why man was conceived or what is man's relationship with man's maker. Neither the older stories nor the newer . The closest it comes to an accurate account of the beginning and end of man (and man's maker) is the parable of the prodigal son. Hardly "the bible". On the other hand, the portrayal of man's maker as a warlord does indicate how depraved is man. Those books do not accurately portray the righteousness of any good god as it mostly portrays collective punishment, punishing many for the wrongs of a few. If you can't see the evil of collective punishment there is no hope for you. Conversely, if you can't see the evil in collective reward and/or special treatment regardless of merit, there is no hope for you. This is a fantasy for sinners only. Sins are their own worst punishment having its own built in mechanisms of "karmic" balanced payback and/or experience . Sin, and the sins that are born of it, are ultimately NOT TRUE. Necessarily a good (true) god only deals with the truth. Thus, your insistence that the Truth must punish your sins is a depraved attempt to make your sins the truth. You can't do that without involving your god in your sins and making god into a sinner. In this devious way you steal an "o" from Good and make it into a god of your own (sinful) imagination. Your only hope is to have more time to learn what I've just revealed to you. If you are really stupid (a great sinner) you will need to be born again and again and again, until after several, perhaps a thousand re-incarnations, you finally become weary enough to cease and desist the silliness. (The Pharisees, even the one that approached Jesus privately, were really stupid flagrant sinners. We know this because Jesus told him he needed to be re-incarnated at least one more time. ). Through the knowledge of Christ. Jesus is a teacher who explained or described that knowledge and one would do well to heed him. However, believing is not the same as understanding. Also, hearing from students who interpret what Jesus said is not the same as directly hearing from Jesus. Understanding what Jesus said solves the problem of believing in erroneous students pretending to be teachers. You've got it backwards. Mankind is a substitute for Christ, which is a sin. For that sin man does die. The cross is the status quo: man's circumstances, man's world, man's body, man's needs, man's vulnerabilities...all of which are sins. Despite the status quo, you can "take up your cross" and follow the way of Jesus out of a tomb. The tomb is also symbolic of man's status quo, as man represents a dead Christ. As a substitute for Christ, man is an expression of death. That is, if Christ were to die, it would look like man's status quo; man's world, man's circumstances , man's beginning (birth) as well man's end (death). "Born to die" is man's circumstance, not Christ's. Born-to-die is the fate of Christ's substitutes. Therefore if you want to rise with Christ you must identify with the real , not the substitutions. This is exactly what Jesus did, by identifying with that which is the "Truth"=the real. But not one Christian has done this, nor will do this, as Christians remain substitutes for Christ. One must BE Christ to avoid the circumstances of sinners. All Christians are united in their denial they are actually Christ. Again, you've got it backwards. You are supposed to lay down your "life" (more like death) for the sake of Christ...not the other way around.
(Response to Good1) The Bible says, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16 KJV I will believe the Bible. All that you wrote contradicts the Bible and is based on what? Reasons? Logic? That is not a valid source of truth, according to the Bible. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 14:12 NKJV Only the Bible contains the truth. It clearly spells out a message of everlasting death and everlasting life. "He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 NKJV
: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. Jos 25:15b Understand, Stu imo, is an alter-pseudonym for some other poster on these boards, it’s only used in anti-Christian diatribes. Good1 is mired in some weird mix of Kabbalah or Chaldean mysticism, my guess. While I fully support sincere open Biblical discussion between fellow Christians and those actually seeking truth, those who have ears. I’ve come to believe the religious threads here are a waist of time, as well as counterproductive and damaging to some. Detractors here have heard the truth and have chosen their paths. Outside of the Holy Spirit’s influence in their lives, there’s nothing you or I can write or say that will have an impact. It only concretes their rebellion. We have others in our lives where energy and resources will have a greater impact for God’s Kingdom.
translation: Don't discuss religion with anyone other than those who already believe in it or want to. Always keep a closed mind for fear that you may come to understand the folly of religious belief. Talk only to those who are prepared to turn themselves into being as gullible as you did and who will resist anything that questions any of the endless religious absurdities.
That is an astonishing thing to say. To think you are prepared to sacrifice reason and logic, two things which if there were a God, it endowed you with. Even though God is only imaginary, I doubt there is any greater testimony you could have made to rival that thankless idea, than for you to throw two of God's 'gifts' back in its face. I would suggest if you have to dismiss reason and logic to defend your religious beliefs, that's a good clue there is something seriously wrong with your religious beliefs.
I'm really glad you shared your thoughts on this. It's something I've been praying about for a while. The only reason I even started posting on this thread was because Stu would write something blasphemous and obviously untrue to the Bible right after Expiated would write something that gave a clear representation of God according to what is in the Bible. I felt like someone should at least defend God. I have spent some time contemplating David's words in 1 Samuel 17:45. As David confronted Goliath he said, "I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied!.....that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel." NKJV (Just a small thing to point out, but to show the Bible's accuracy and make a point that contrary to the skeptics claims that the Bible is not trustworthy....here we see the phrase "all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel" at that time, the news of the battle wouldn't have traveled over the whole earth...but look at today....every continent has the Bible and the story of David and Goliath. It's little things like this that over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again have confirmed to me that the Bible is reliable, gives a true and clear message to anyone who will read it of the God who spoke in the past to the prophets, then spoke to us through His Son, Jesus.) I do see your point that writing on a board like this can be a waste of time, counterproductive and damaging to some. I've actually asked some of my Christians friends for their thoughts about continuing to post here. Here's some things to consider when making a decision of whether or not to continue posting: Judas was one of the disciples and looked like a disciple. He was able to do miracles when he was sent out with the other disciples. He watched all the things Jesus did that gave "evidence" that Jesus was no ordinary man. Jesus walked on water, calmed the storm, multiplied a small amount of food to feed thousands of people, healed the sick AND the blind, and even raised dead people to life again. Yet none of these "evidences" made Judas a believer. Reminds me of the verse where Jesus quotes Abraham as saying, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead." Luke 16:31 We all know the rest of the story. Judas, who had been stealing from the disciples' money bag previously, decides to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. It was another Christian who pointed out some things about Judas to me, when we were discussing this thread. There are some people, that no matter how strong the evidence is, will still reject God. This wasn't a simple rejection of just not believing...he actually was instrumental in Jesus being handed over to His enemies. He betrayed the One who had called him, loved him and befriended him. Jesus called him "Friend" when Judas led the soldiers to Him. Here is the story in Mathew 26:48-50 NASB: Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them, "The One I kiss is the man; arrest Him." Going directly to Jesus, he said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed Him. "Friend," Jesus replied, "do what you came for." Judas is an example of the many places in the Bible where it describes people's condition as hopelessly lost in our sin. God created Adam and Eve good, but with a choice to leave Him. They did leave Him and in doing so, all of us, their descendants, have continued down the path of rejecting God. Adam and Eve rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden when they deliberately disobeyed the most basic command, "And the LORD God commanded him, 'You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die." Genesis 2:17 The phrase "you will surely die" can also be translated, "dying, you will surely die." Ecclesiastes 7:29 "...God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes." Micah 7:2-4 "The godly has perished from the earth, and there is no one upright among mankind; they all lie in wait for blood, and each hunts the other with a net. Theier hands are on what is evil, to do it well; the prince and the judge ask for a bribe, and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave it together. The best of them is like a brier, the most upright of them a thorn hedge." Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick, who can understand it?" Genesis 6:5 and 8:21 "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually....from his youth." Romans 1:24 "Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever!" John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires." Mark 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person." And people look around and say we aren't so bad. How can God be good and let so many bad things happen to good people? Jonathan Edwards began the Great Awakening with a sermon entitled, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." The following was taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinners_in_the_Hands_of_an_Angry_God: "There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." Most of the sermon's text consists of ten "considerations": God may cast wicked men into hell at any given moment. The wicked deserve to be cast into hell. Divine justice does not prevent God from destroying the Wicked at any moment. The wicked, at this moment, suffer under God's condemnation to Hell. The wicked, on earth—at this very moment—suffer a sample of the torments of Hell. The wicked must not think, simply because they are not physically in Hell, that God (in Whose hand the wicked now reside) is not—at this very moment—as angry with them as He is with those miserable creatures He is now tormenting in hell, and who—at this very moment—do feel and bear the fierceness of His wrath. At any moment God shall permit him, Satan stands ready to fall upon the wicked and seize them as his own. If it were not for God's restraints, there are, in the souls of wicked men, hellish principles reigning which, presently, would kindle and flame out into hellfire. Simply because there are not visible means of death before them at any given moment, the wicked should not feel secure. Simply because it is natural to care for oneself or to think that others may care for them, men should not think themselves safe from God's wrath. All that wicked men may do to save themselves from Hell's pains shall afford them nothing if they continue to reject Christ. God has never promised to save us from Hell, except for those contained in Christ through the covenant of Grace. The New Testament shows that almost everywhere Christians went proclaiming Jesus they were met with opposition. Many were tortured or lost their lives for the sake of proclaiming the good news--that we can be born again through Jesus--to a lost and dying world. There is a time to evaluate if we are casting our pearls before swine and need to do as Jesus said, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet." Matthew 10:14 Paul went to Ephesus and preached for 3 months until opposition came, then he stopped preaching publicly and continued with those who wanted to listen. "And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples." Acts 19:8,9 For me, personally, there are some things I would like to keep sharing on my two threads. However, I don't think I want to engage in active discussions/debates with those whose purpose is to maliciously attack God and the truths of the Bible. On the other hand, if I see a direct lie from the pit of hell, I often feel compelled to show that the Bible calls it a lie...end of discussion. I will continue to pray about this and seek out counsel from other believers.