There lies the immorality of religion laid bare. The apologetic's dismissal of barbarities in the name of an imaginary God. A God supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent yet so inept and dysfunctional, it didn’t know it was making a species it wasn’t going to like and so destroyed every living thing to try again. If it wasn’t for the assassination of reasoned thought, a God which commits genocide, which murders adults and children alike as if it was incapable of ‘orchestrating’ things any better, could not be otherwise justified without the self-inflicted superstition of a blind religious belief, devoid of every normal ethical standards it dishonestly claims to own. No wonder the world gets so f*kd up when humans allow themselves such divine permission to say wrong is right and cynically claim what’s patently evil, is something good.
Stu wrote a view of God that is inconsistent with what is revealed in the Holy Scriptures. Stu has asked that I not throw Bible verses at him and so this response is merely my reflection on the matter, all of which have a basis found in Scripture. This is not a message directed to Stu, also out of respect for Stu's previously requests to me not to talk about God's judgments in a way that is directed at him. Stu's words are in Blue. My response is below his. Stu wrote his message as a reply to Expiated. Here is a partial quote of Expiated's message: "It’s been interesting to me to note the difference in how I "saw" the Old Testament before and after being "filled" with the Holy Spirit. Originally, I thought that God could be pretty brutal. But later, I formed the opinion that virtually everything God does involves goodness and mercy." Here is Stu's response: "There lies the immorality of religion laid bare. The apologetic's dismissal of barbarities in the name of an imaginary God. A God supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent yet so inept and dysfunctional, it didn’t know it was making a species it wasn’t going to like and so destroyed every living thing to try again. If it wasn’t for the assassination of reasoned thought, a God which commits genocide, which murders adults and children alike as if it was incapable of ‘orchestrating’ things any better, could not be otherwise justified without the self-inflicted superstition of a blind religious belief, devoid of every normal ethical standards it dishonestly claims to own. No wonder the world gets so f*kd up when humans allow themselves such divine permission to say wrong is right and cynically claim what’s patently evil, is something good." Here are my thoughts on the matter of God's goodness and rightousness in His judgments, based on the Bible: My God is Altogether Lovely. His work is perfect. His ways are just. He is a faithful God. He does no wrong. He is without iniquity. The word of the LORD proves true. God is a shield for all those who take refuge in Him. God’s view of the condition of people is far different from our own. He said in the Old Testament, “But like Adam, you broke my covenant and betrayed my trust.” Hos 6:7a NLT “They have dealt treacherously against me.” Hos 6:7b NASB “They hated Me without a cause.” John 15:25 NASB What does the Lord require of us? He has given us the 10 commandments. Here is a partial list from Exodus 20: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” “Honour thy father and thy mother” “Thou shalt not kill” “Thou shalt not commit adultery” “Thou shalt not steal” “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” God desires, even commands that we love Him. “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength.” Deut 6:5 NKJV What right does God have to command us to do anything? What right does God have to command us to love Him? What right does God have to judge us? God has the right, because He is our Creator. “The earth and everything on it, including its people, belong to the LORD. The world and its people belong to him.” Ps 24 1 CEV “Know that the LORD Himself is God; It is He who made us, and not we ourselves.” Ps 100:3 NASB “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.” Rev 4:11 NKJV “You are the judge of all the earth, and you do what is right.” Gen 18:25 CEV Ever since Adam and Eve departed from God in the garden of Eden, people have not wanted God to rule over them. God chose to work with one nation, Israel to reveal Himself to them, and yet included provisions for people in all nations to be accepted by Him should they come to Him according to His terms. The nation of Israel entered into a special covenant with Him, that He would be their God and they would do His commands. “Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine.” Ex 19:5 NIV Yet just as the hearts of all people have wanted to be free from God and His right to rule over us, throughout their history Israelites also showed that even with special revelation from God, many would choose to forsake Him and His ways. This reveals that none of us truly desire God and His ways. We all have gone astray from Him. “All day long I opened my arms to a rebellious people. But they follow their own evil paths and their own crooked schemes.” Is 65:2 NLT “There is none righteous, no not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.” Rom 3 10, 11 NKJV Yet God still loves us. Still works to get our attention. He will judge us righteously, but desires to show mercy. God provided a remedy for reconciliation with Himself. For those who repent of their rebellion against their Creator, receiving Jesus’ work on the cross and resurrection as the substitution for their rebellion and sin, God promises restoration to Himself. Isaiah 53:6, written hundreds of years before Jesus, the God who became flesh and dwelt among us, came to earth, says, “All we like sheep have gone astray: We have turned every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.” NKJV God is the only Good. God is love. Jesus said that no greater love has anyone that to lay down one’s life for his friends. Then He suffered a cruel death, taking the punishment we deserve for forsaking the all good God and for our evil deeds and thoughts. God loves His enemies and desires all to repent and be reconciled to Himself.
The following is a list of Bible references that my thoughts for the previous message were formed around. Song of Solomon 5:16 Deuteronomy 32:4 Psalm 18:30 John 15:25 Micah 6:8 Psalm 24:1 Psalm 100:3 Psalm 2 John 3:16 Matthew 9:3 Romans 5:10
Again, I commend you for engaging Stu. I could not even begin to do so because so much of what he says is not even true. For example, based on your summary of interactions with him, he wrote... it didn’t know it was making a species it wasn’t going to like (Species it wasn't going to like? But the Bible says that God so loved the world that He gave His [the Son's] own life for it.) destroyed every living thing (This statement is patently false on its face.) blind religious belief (A Christian’s belief should be largely based on God [the Son] having literally walked the Earth Himself and proven His divinity by performing miracles and rising from the dead [among many other reasons far too numerous to list here]—hardly blind religious belief. devoid of every normal ethical standards it dishonestly claims to own (Devoid? This statement completely ignores religious charities, schools, hospitals, orphanages, relief groups, the fact that religious folks are just about the only people groups in today's society who are opposed to the genocide of babies in the womb justified by a "cynical claim that what’s patently evil is something good," and the significant role Christians played in abolishing slavery in Great Britain and in the United States of America.
I guess the reason I've pursued a dialogue with Stu is simple concern for him and others. We Christians have so much joy in our relationship with the Lord and the promises He's given and it's just heart breaking to see so many in this world not knowing the love of God, the love of Christ. The warnings the Bible gives of the coming judgment does not come upon believers in Jesus. The troubles of this life are the only time we will ever face sorrow. We have been promised an eternal future dwelling closely with God and in all perfection, there will be no sin, no evil, no sadness. But for unbelievers, there are many warnings. For example, “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”, Heb 9:27 For us Christians, the only thing we can do about it is love, pray for and warn them. I often think about how the prophet Jeremiah wept because he warned his people but he knew they weren’t listening to him and that if they did not repent they would be exiled. “But if you will not pay attention to this warning, I will weep alone because of your arrogant pride. I will weep bitterly and my eyes will overflow with tears because you, the LORD's flock, will be carried into exile." Jer 13:17 NET Jesus also wept over those who rejected Him, just before He was crucified. This verse has helped me understand that God really longs for people to turn to Him, to know Him. "As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes….because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God” Luke 19:41, ...44c NIV
Note: "I am" is not a name. Nor are "Father", "Son", or "Holy Spirit" names. Rather, these are parables and/or descriptions for slaves of words. By word slaves I mean mankind. Divinity, on the other hand, is not limited, communicating more along the lines of the phenomenon of telepathy, or direct mind to mind impressions. This is how "knowledge" can be shared, rather than learned . indeed, without limitations like words, it is possible to have a divine "Son" to be given the knowledge of everything upon "birth" so-to-speak. So, divinity (that which is legitimately Good) remains beyond words. Because of this, it is insulting to suggest that there was actually a "word of Good" or that any of Good's alleged words "became flesh". If you could limit Good, there might be a word to describe the limitation, as all words eminate from a deliberate limitation of an otherwise unlimited Good. It is only that so-called "word" that might "become flesh" as both the word and the flesh represent illegitimate expressions of limitation. That said, "I am" is a well known mantra going back at least 2000 B.C. emanating from the east, wherever there are derivatives of Hindu. It's quite possible the priestly authors of the stories made up for Hebrew consumption borrowed not only from several other narratives, but including Hindu oriented narratives . Jesus, who probably trained far east of Abraham-land, would have been familiar with this mantra, and probably explains why when probed about his age, he probably replied "before Abraham was, I AM". To understand the significance of this saying, all you have to do is Google "I am" as it is taught in such Hindu derivatives as Advaita Vedanta. Briefly , it is a method of prayer, if you will, to realize ones true Self as the only Being that actually exists, hence the implication 'I exist'. Again , this is not a name, but the eastern name for that Being is popular as "Brahman", the Supreme Being. As such, Jesus is identifying himself with/as the "most high" so to speak. Having identified with/as the "most high" so-to-speak, the True Self of Jesus would be higher, so to speak, than Jehovah, YHWE , or any other named species of god that priests have named for mass consumption (for official narratives). As such, his Self would be above and beyond whatever species of god it is that assembles atoms to make shapes and sizes called galaxies . In one derivative of Hindu tradition, the assembly of atoms is the Brahman at "play". Play implies it is not to be taken seriously. Taken seriously, the assembly of atoms into structures, including the human body, is called "sin". A more descriptive word could be *imagination*, or *dream*. This is to say that in identifying himself with/as the most high, Jesus also takes responsibility for the supposed making of the world, in the assembly of atoms. This is symbolized in the parable of the cross, in which he takes upon his shoulders the sins of the whole world. Properly interpreted , he is confessing his "sin". Meanwhile sin, properly understood, is "play" that is not to be taken seriously. Forgiveness is the mental mechanism that transforms "sin" into "play", and ultimately into imaginary concepts (dreams) that are *not true*. This is ultimately how Jesus emerges as "sinless" and/or "without sin". But first, he had to take tacit responsibility for assembling the atoms that appear as an alternative universe versus the spiritual domain that Brahman/Christ abides in normally. This, then, is "the way" he spoke of. Anyone who wishes to follow this example will also take reponsibility for assembling all the atoms, and, having confessed this "sin", position their mind to accept the forgiveness process/transformation which lifts the sin from one's shoulders. What lifts the sin from one's shoulders is acceptance of the fact that nothing the assembly of atoms represents actually happened (does not exist) . By contrast the only Being/thing that does exist is Christ/Brahman, hence "I am". Proper employment of the mantra "I am" is discussed by the most advanced teachers . It is not discussed in the official narrative for the masses (the "bible") except to say that Jesus prayed a lot. There is no discussion as to what he actually did or said (or didn't say) when he prayed as the official narrative is not any kind of advanced or detailed teaching such as I am exposing here. However, an earnest student can eventually learn, after some seeking with a search engine, just how such a mantra/prayer is employed to bring ones mind to the experiential realization of one's Self as All That Exists, or what I call Christ! (with an exclamation mark). For good students, I will briefly touch upon the proper employment of the mantra/prayer "I am". The first thing you must accept, in theory, is there is an imposter "I am..." and the True Self. You can easily spot the imposter by anything that follows "I am...", such as: I am a carpenter. I am a plumber I am the president of the United States I am a wise man I am a black woman I am Bob. I am Mike I am Mary I am Jesus Anything following "I am...", is a product of imagination. At worst (taken seriously) it is sin. At best it is role playing (a larp). In psychological terms these are ego, all of which are alternatives to the True Self. As alternatives, they are imposters representing a kind of mental illness akin to schizophrenia. "I am", therefore, is a deliberate attempt to truncate the imagination, and bring ones mind back to the True Self, which has existence, but no name. However, even "I am" is too many words for a Being which knows nothing of limitations (like words ) . So "I am" is a beginners prayer/mantra for word slaves. It is best to approach this carefully, because there is also an imposter that goes by the words "I am". It is from this imposter that all other imposter identities (along with their names) derive from. This imposter is the chief sinner which assembles all the atoms that make up man and man's galaxies. As said, it is imperative the good student takes responsibility for this chief of alter egos...in order to have ones steps back to the origins of one's True Self. In practice, the good student does not wish to let his thoughts wander past the words "I am.". The objective is to cease and desist adding imaginative ideas that go past/beyond the True Self, for it is these erroneous ideas (thinking) that assembles the atoms that then appear to be real in one's experience. This is to recognize that it is a wandering mind that produces all of man's environment in which he experiences so many sad and painful limitations. "I am" (and nothing more) is a deliberate attempt to bring a wandering mind (the "prodigal son") back "home". Eventually the good student wants to limit the mantra to "I", and nothing more, as a wandering mind is further curtailed , and brought back home. Even this "I" will be an imposter on first try. But if the good student keeps knocking on this door, it will open, by the grace of Christ, and the imposter will be banished (washed away) to be replaced with the original True Self as well the enjoyment of the experience thereof (heaven, bliss). Upon experiencing oneself as the True Self (Christ!/Reality) there are no more words, not even the word "I". Summarizing, words are limitations that serve to *block* the normal communication that exists in the Mind of Christ. Words eminate from an alter ego (an anti-Christ) to be used by word slaves in the service of the alter-ego (anti-Christ, "god-of-this-world" ). "I am" is a mantra meant to restrain a wandering mind and bring it back to wordless existence where communication is direct and transparent . This is the true meaning of "communion".
I previously wrote to you, concerned because "Nothing that you just wrote is backed up by Scripture." You replied, "Oh thank you. I will take that as a compliment." The same is true here. I am only interested in believing what is in the Bible for my understanding of who God is. There are many reasons for this. I'm not going to get into all of them now, but the basics are that there are many, many evidences that the Bible is accurate both historically and in it's revelation of God. Fulfilled prophecy and historical records that align with archaeological evidences are two reasons. The way the Bible portrays a unified character of God, though penned over centuries (and possibly thousands of years, because there are some reasons to think that when Moses wrote Genesis, there may have been earlier writings that had been passed down that became a part of that book.) The third way is more subjective...not provable to others. It is the understanding of the scriptures that comes with the Holy Spirit's guidance, which is given to all true believers in Jesus. In other words, my faith isn't just intellectual, but is a personal relationship with One who often reveals Himself to me in deeper ways using scripture to do so (no, I don't hear a voice or anything like that....no "special revelations" outside of the scriptures). Although I wouldn't mind trying to discuss matters about God with you, there really isn't anything for me to discuss at this point, because I rely only on the Bible and it's authority. You openly do not accept it as your authority. There's no common ground for a discussion. I have been curious about one thing, however. I have many "evidences" and reasons for why I believe the Bible to be reliable. However, I cannot figure out how you can trust in your belief system. To me, it seems like it is not founded on anything except ideas that are either your own or come from others. My question is, do you believe your views have "evidences" to back them up? Or are they entirely based on what you to believe is logical and other's philosophical ideas. Something else that's been confusing to me is that you keep referring to Jesus, or Christ, but you must not believe what the Bible says about Him, because Jesus clearly claimed to be God. He was nearly stoned for claiming God was His Father, and the Jews understood that to mean He was claiming to be equal with God. He used the words, "I AM" many times in a deliberate way to show that He is the "I AM" who spoke to Moses. Your view of "I AM" is not scriptural, so I'm not even going to comment on it. His disciple Thomas said to Him, "My Lord and My God" when Jesus appeared to him and the others after His resurrection. These are just off the top of my head, I think there are more. Why even refer to Jesus at all, if you don't acknowledge anything that He taught? Jesus also affirmed the Old Testament scriptures, yet you do not.
I really don't think Jesus did affirm the official narrative spoon fed to the masses by a priest class ("Old Testament"). Rather he panned such liturature as *traditions*, excoriated anyone who traces their genealogy back to it's beginning, and offered a brand new cosmology (reason for the genesis of man's world) in the parable of the "prodigal son". Even the first chapter of John gives a brand new cosmology that does align with the official narrative , lacking only in explanation as to how or why the "word" "became flesh". That explanation is sketched out in the parable of the prodigal son (hint: leaving a spiritual "kingdom" causes enfleshment = "foreign land"). I have said Jesus took the responsibility for the making of man's world upon his shoulder . As such, he is holding himself responsible for being "the god of this world", which the high priests call YHWE, or Jehovah, but which Jesus confesses is "the devil" (and by extension "sons of the devil" anyone who traces his genealogy back to Adam). But as I've said, making man's world is something he confessed, not something to boast about, as do the poor students. It is a confession because man's world and it's maker (by any name) are sins. "I am" is a mantra that invokes the forgiveness of sins when properly employed. Forgiveness relies upon the realization of what is true (Christ) versus what is not true (sin, the god of this world). In this way, the truth washes away the sins of the world, as well an entire world built upon a foundation of sand (sin). To be more clear , the prodigal son is the "God" of a world assembled by atoms. So it's not as though Jesus denies his association with/as the god described in the beginning of Hebrew priest class liturature ("the Old Testament"). He did confess he was the prodigal son. It's just that he, as his True Self (Christ!) is much more than that. Better said, the official narrative god-of-this-world (the one that makes man) is a kind of imposter self which interdicts the expression of the True Self (Christ) by imposing its own version of Christ/Reality for its own amusement (play, sin). You don't understand because you are still loyal to your maker, you as a man, mailman, carpenter or plumber. So long as you identify with any such thing, or even if you identify as man's maker, you will not understand Christ because such identities do not welcome Christ. The "Old Testament" is altogether wrong and/or blasphemous from the very "beginning" of its narrative . The New Testament is blasphemous to the extent it forces Jesus to support the Old Testament by putting ridiculous words in his mouth. But you should know that Jesus was an authentic teacher whose message was not completely suppressed by Jew-centric interpreters. There are actually two opposing gospels within the collection of letters, narratives, stories, interpretations and sayings that amount to what's called "the new testament" and I am simply liberating the truth contained therein from the bars of "context" in which it is imprisoned. I estimate that only 5% of the red letters actually came out of Jesus" mouth . Once out of his mouth his words must still be interpreted. Note well, the proper interpretation cannot be found within the context, as that is already an illegitimate interpretation (propaganda). Regardless, some authenticity shines through despite the bad interpretations, and these authenticities are what I expound upon.
I could ask you the same question. By offering your loyalty to the god that makes flesh, you really don't acknowledge a Good which deals only in spirit and in truth. You will not acknowledge that there is perpetual enmity between spirit and flesh that is forever irreconcilable except through self-deceit and/or self-conceit. Your loyalty to the concept of flesh is why you can't interpret correctly what Jesus says, and prevents you from discriminating what he actually says from what bad interpreters say he said (according to the agenda dictated by their loyalties to the flesh ). This mixing of flesh versus spirit invokes cognitive dissonance which prevents the proper interpretation of Jesus teachings.
I have some personal experience that might be described as an epiphany, or perhaps revelation, or better described as an imartation of knowledge given to my mind from the Mind of Christ once upon a time when I called on that name, or uppn the name of its representative "Jesus". At that time I "knew" this was not my home, and that I originate from somewhere or from some pre-existence before the foundations of an atom-assembled world (galaxies ect.). It happened when I (my persona) was about 20. This bit of knowledge set me on a path seeking what "this" is versus what "home" is. It took 25 years to understand, twelve of those years associating with some brand of Christianity becoming quite familiar with the "Bible". I did finally receive the help of other books which I consider much more authoritative than the "Bible". At one time I was almost as convinced as you were that the "Bible" was the earth's only deposit of liturgical authority. I was wrong, and some day you will realize how wrong you were the day, the moment you decided, upon your own authority, that the "Bible" was an authority over you. I was set free because I was honest. I was a very good student.