Ed Seykota got me thinking about trend and momentum and not mixing up the two. He says all trends exist only in hindsight. He says that a trend is the 1st derivative of price and adds a lag onto price data. And Momentum is the 2nd derivative of price and adds an additional lag onto price data. Therefore, his reasoning goes why add an additional lag onto your trading by trading momentum - instead of simply sticking to trading the trend. He then adds you can goes further and add even another lag such as the momentum of the momentum - the 3rd derivative of price, and so on. Some of the common trend indicators people use are: trendlines, moving averages, N-Bar Breakouts, and HL,HH/LH,LL patterns. Of these three I think N-Bar Breakouts and HL,HH/LH,LL are the true (non momentum) trend indicators. With trendlines and moving averages, one can confuse with trend trading when in fact they may be momemtum trading. For example if you're using trendlines, aren't you really trading momentum rather than trend? The equation of a line is f(x) = mx + b where m is the slope (momentum, or rate of change). So if you hold a "trend" trade using a trend line and hold until the trendline breaks then aren't you really just trading momentum - because a trendline break is actually a momentum break (price can continue to go up on slower momentum). Same thing with Moving averages. If you look at a 200 day MA on S&P from 2003 to now for example. If price moves below the 200 day MA it doesn't mean the 200 day trend is now down it means that the momentum of the 200 MA has broken and is now decreasing. The 200 day trend may continue up with decreased momentum. The mixing up trend and momentum gets eliminated by using an N Breakout system like a 200 day breakout. Momentum isn't a variable at all in such a system. HL,HH/LH,LL patterns are also free of momentum considerations. So my question is how to trend trade using TLs and MAs without getting it mixed up with momentum trading? Is it even possible? Since momentum trading is inherently trend trading, isn't using TLs and MAs simply trend trading with tighter trailing stops so that you get out as soon as momentum breaks/weakens even though the trend itself does not change/reverse.